- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
Nothing new in the rear axle, just the same old open diff. In the past, if it broke the tires loose it was only the RR and the rear end never stepped out.
The H'ell Camino
- Thread starter Greg
- Start date
Nothing new in the rear axle, just the same old open diff. In the past, if it broke the tires loose it was only the RR and the rear end never stepped out.
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
I thought we were headed straight when it stepped out... need to go back and look at the on ramp in the daylight and see if we left tire marks.
**Edit** I think we were just get getting straightened out, coming out of the curve when it shifted and all hell broke loose.
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
I totally forgot to look for marks this morning. We were right at the end of the curve when the car let freedom ring. I still can't believe how little body roll that car has while being flicked back and forth that quickly. 😂I thought we were headed straight when it stepped out... need to go back and look at the on ramp in the daylight and see if we left tire marks.
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
the red marker represents our trajectory.
RockChucker
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Highland
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
You gotta know you're going to catch a little crap for a 🔄 however, I didn't mean to push your buttons. So for that I'm sorry.
✌
A few things.
I never said a bigger anti roll bar was bad.
I did indicate a bigger anti roll bar without adding a rear anti roll bar could make the car unbalanced.
Thank you for spending all that time helping educate The Forum on anti-roll bars. I wasn't insinuating you didn't have a decent grasp on it.
And you're right, I wasn't there.
What I am explaining is that your description of the event sounded a lot like high-slip-angle snap oversteer.
You can read up on it yourself but the jist of the idea is you are right in saying a bigger front anti-roll bar can better the tendency of a high power rwd vehicle to oversteer... but that's an oversimplified statement in that particular article (it's not addressing any particular vehicle's suspension dynamics). With no rear anti-roll bar and a big front you've got an unbalanced equation.
As you reach higher slip angles, the lack of rear anti-roll bar lets the vehicle weight transfer too much to the leading rear tire. As the leading rear tire loads up it removes grip from the front trailing tire (and by association both front tires thanks to the larger front anti-roll bar) and induces snap oversteer at the limit instead of a more controlled grip transition.
[Another piece of the puzzle is the rear suspension geometry with really short uppers and longer lowers on El Caminos that gives that a & g body shuffle]
That's why the car pendulums even when you put (I assume) lots of opposite lock steering input to correct the slide.
(With a rear anti-roll bar it would likely slide more controlled and "flatter" with less side to side chassis bucking).
Your hard shifting auto absolutely exacerbated that-like you said. As it went from acceleration (rear grip bias) to rolling (grip forward) as it paused and shifted hard, then acceleration (rear grip) again which exceeded the tires (cold/wet/slippery) coefficient of friction- starting the slide.
I am not insulting your driving ability or intelligence.
I am indicating that adding a rear anti-roll bar to a car with a low rear weight balance and high horsepower and big front anti-roll bar will improve the balance.
Balanced suspensions work better just like Balanced brakes work better: As demonstrated by almost every successful track and autocross car. Very very few well developed cars in either of these desciplines lacks a rear anti-roll bar. To further reinforce my thoughts; if balance wasn't a problem the aftermarket wouldn't build so many "A" and "G" body rear anti-roll bars.
Believe it or not I spent some time at the Nurburgring taking some advanced autocross in Caterham 5's (turns out I hit lots of cones in my first RHD car 🤣) Our instructor spent a decent amount of time on suspension theory and then forced us to experience snap oversteer (over and over) so we could understand the dynamics of it.
I still won't even pretend the be an expert on El Caminos and there are SO many better drivers and suspension experts than me. But I can make some well educated and scientifically reinforced (but truthfully somewhat assumptive- in the case of your car) statements on suspension balance.
You know I love ya and just want you and Hickey to not be dead 😘
✌A few things.
I never said a bigger anti roll bar was bad.
I did indicate a bigger anti roll bar without adding a rear anti roll bar could make the car unbalanced.
Thank you for spending all that time helping educate The Forum on anti-roll bars. I wasn't insinuating you didn't have a decent grasp on it.
And you're right, I wasn't there.
What I am explaining is that your description of the event sounded a lot like high-slip-angle snap oversteer.
You can read up on it yourself but the jist of the idea is you are right in saying a bigger front anti-roll bar can better the tendency of a high power rwd vehicle to oversteer... but that's an oversimplified statement in that particular article (it's not addressing any particular vehicle's suspension dynamics). With no rear anti-roll bar and a big front you've got an unbalanced equation.
As you reach higher slip angles, the lack of rear anti-roll bar lets the vehicle weight transfer too much to the leading rear tire. As the leading rear tire loads up it removes grip from the front trailing tire (and by association both front tires thanks to the larger front anti-roll bar) and induces snap oversteer at the limit instead of a more controlled grip transition.
[Another piece of the puzzle is the rear suspension geometry with really short uppers and longer lowers on El Caminos that gives that a & g body shuffle]
That's why the car pendulums even when you put (I assume) lots of opposite lock steering input to correct the slide.
(With a rear anti-roll bar it would likely slide more controlled and "flatter" with less side to side chassis bucking).
Your hard shifting auto absolutely exacerbated that-like you said. As it went from acceleration (rear grip bias) to rolling (grip forward) as it paused and shifted hard, then acceleration (rear grip) again which exceeded the tires (cold/wet/slippery) coefficient of friction- starting the slide.
I am not insulting your driving ability or intelligence.
I am indicating that adding a rear anti-roll bar to a car with a low rear weight balance and high horsepower and big front anti-roll bar will improve the balance.
Balanced suspensions work better just like Balanced brakes work better: As demonstrated by almost every successful track and autocross car. Very very few well developed cars in either of these desciplines lacks a rear anti-roll bar. To further reinforce my thoughts; if balance wasn't a problem the aftermarket wouldn't build so many "A" and "G" body rear anti-roll bars.
Believe it or not I spent some time at the Nurburgring taking some advanced autocross in Caterham 5's (turns out I hit lots of cones in my first RHD car 🤣) Our instructor spent a decent amount of time on suspension theory and then forced us to experience snap oversteer (over and over) so we could understand the dynamics of it.
I still won't even pretend the be an expert on El Caminos and there are SO many better drivers and suspension experts than me. But I can make some well educated and scientifically reinforced (but truthfully somewhat assumptive- in the case of your car) statements on suspension balance.
You know I love ya and just want you and Hickey to not be dead 😘
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
You gotta know you're going to catch a little crap for a 🔄 however, I didn't mean to push your buttons. So for that I'm sorry.
A few things.
I never said a bigger anti roll bar was bad.
I did indicate a bigger anti roll bar without adding a rear anti roll bar could make the car unbalanced.
Thank you for spending all that time helping educate The Forum on anti-roll bars. I wasn't insinuating you didn't have a decent grasp on it.
And you're right, I wasn't there.
What I am explaining is that your description of the event sounded a lot like high-slip-angle snap oversteer.
You can read up on it yourself but the jist of the idea is you are right in saying a bigger front anti-roll bar can better the tendency of a high power rwd vehicle to oversteer... but that's an oversimplified statement in that particular article (it's not addressing any particular vehicle's suspension dynamics). With no rear anti-roll bar and a big front you've got an unbalanced equation.
As you reach higher slip angles, the lack of rear anti-roll bar lets the vehicle weight transfer too much to the leading rear tire. As the leading rear tire loads up it removes grip from the front trailing tire (and by association both front tires thanks to the larger front anti-roll bar) and induces snap oversteer at the limit instead of a more controlled grip transition.
[Another piece of the puzzle is the rear suspension geometry with really short uppers and longer lowers on El Caminos that gives that a & g body shuffle]
That's why the car pendulums even when you put (I assume) lots of opposite lock steering input to correct the slide.
(With a rear anti-roll bar it would likely slide more controlled and "flatter" with less side to side chassis bucking).
Your hard shifting auto absolutely exacerbated that-like you said. As it went from acceleration (rear grip bias) to rolling (grip forward) as it paused and shifted hard, then acceleration (rear grip) again which exceeded the tires (cold/wet/slippery) coefficient of friction- starting the slide.
I am not insulting your driving ability or intelligence.
I am indicating that adding a rear anti-roll bar to a car with a low rear weight balance and high horsepower and big front anti-roll bar will improve the balance.
Balanced suspensions work better just like Balanced brakes work better: As demonstrated by almost every successful track and autocross car. Very very few well developed cars in either of these desciplines lacks a rear anti-roll bar. To further reinforce my thoughts; if balance wasn't a problem the aftermarket wouldn't build so many "A" and "G" body rear anti-roll bars.
Believe it or not I spent some time at the Nurburgring taking some advanced autocross in Caterham 5's (turns out I hit lots of cones in my first RHD car 🤣) Our instructor spent a decent amount of time on suspension theory and then forced us to experience snap oversteer (over and over) so we could understand the dynamics of it.
I still won't even pretend the be an expert on El Caminos and there are SO many better drivers and suspension experts than me. But I can make some well educated and scientifically reinforced (but truthfully somewhat assumptive- in the case of your car) statements on suspension balance.
You know I love ya and just want you and Hickey to not be dead 😘
👌
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
Who the **** even brings up the Nurburgring in a thread about muscle cars? Greg, please don't ever put a rear swaybar on your Camino. It would make rides like that way less fun.
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
When I had my '71 SS Camaro, I loved drifting that car and did it often. Even got a ticket for exhibition of speed on State Street in SLC after driving the car sideways at full throttle, at full lock for almost 1/2 a block (tires were wet). But it had a tight limited slip and was super predictable. I could stay in the throttle and control the slide easily. I'm no stranger to driving a car on the edge of control.
When the El Camino slid out yesterday, there was nothing predictable about it.... everything was fine, then the rear-end kicked out as it shifted into 2nd. What happened yesterday had so much more to do with the mag chloride on the road and hardly anything to do with the big anti-swaybar.
Not that it matters, but I'm getting tired of arguing about it. It's getting old.
When the El Camino slid out yesterday, there was nothing predictable about it.... everything was fine, then the rear-end kicked out as it shifted into 2nd. What happened yesterday had so much more to do with the mag chloride on the road and hardly anything to do with the big anti-swaybar.
Not that it matters, but I'm getting tired of arguing about it. It's getting old.
DAA
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Bountiful, UT
I got that ticket once when I got caught practicing Rockfords in my '68 Chevelle. That was a BIG ticket!
- DAA
- DAA
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
Awesome! I happened to pull out right in front of a Sheriff, he watched the entire thing. At the time, my hood didn't fit due to the highrise intake... he saw the engine and commented on how good it looked. I told him that it looked good, but got me into trouble sometimes. He laughed, but still wrote me a big ticket!
I deserved it!
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
I look at speeding tickets, etc. as just the price you pay. I got pulled over this summer on the 101 in bum**** Oregon for doing 20 over when I passed a line of five cars (cop was coming the opposite direction). The officer as always asked, "Do you know why I pulled you over?"Awesome! I happened to pull out right in front of a Sheriff, he watched the entire thing. At the time, my hood didn't fit due to the highrise intake... he saw the engine and commented on how good it looked. I told him that it looked good, but got me into trouble sometimes. He laughed, but still wrote me a big ticket!
"Yes, I was doing around 80 in a 60."
"Can you tell me why?", he replied.
"Well, the people in front of me were going really slow."
He laughed, "Thanks for being honest."
Still gave me a ticket, though. Out of state plates, you know.
Jesser04
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Kaysville Utah
This you?
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
This car is so much fun, probably going to get me in trouble one of these days! Had it out for a nice cruise today, drove out to Utah, did some one tire burnouts, took it up on the Colorado Monument with its winding roads and just enjoyed more time behind the wheel!
The LS and 4L60E are perfect upgrades to this thing!
Had it out for a nice cruise today, drove out to Utah, did some one tire burnouts, took it up on the Colorado Monument with its winding roads and just enjoyed more time behind the wheel!The LS and 4L60E are perfect upgrades to this thing!
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
I finally picked up the interface to properly tune the car, from HP Tuners. I pulled the trigger on the MPVI2 interface with the Pro Interface Set after finding one lightly used here in GJ for $250 (retail is $550!). Just downloaded the HP Tuners software and need to pay for a credit ($49) and I'll be able to tweak the engine & trans tune!
I've also been getting educated on engine tuning... I understand the basics, but there is so much I don't know. I actually bought a online class package from HP Academy and have been learning about tuning. - https://www.hpacademy.com/hpa-starter-package/
Obviously I'll make a copy of the current 'stock' tune and keep it stored as the default. Hopefully the weather holds out long enough that I can get the car out on a quiet road, make some full throttle pulls and get to tuning.
I've also been getting educated on engine tuning... I understand the basics, but there is so much I don't know. I actually bought a online class package from HP Academy and have been learning about tuning. - https://www.hpacademy.com/hpa-starter-package/
Obviously I'll make a copy of the current 'stock' tune and keep it stored as the default. Hopefully the weather holds out long enough that I can get the car out on a quiet road, make some full throttle pulls and get to tuning.
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
The El Camino has pretty much been in storage for Winter, but I was able to get the HP Tuners connected and checked out the current tune.
After playing around with it, I felt like I had a good idea of what it could do and quickly realized I didn't have the experience to tune the engine and don't want to 'practice' on the LS.
This morning I dropped the car off at Whitts Rod Shop here in GJ, they have a guy who is a LS tuning guru. I talked to him about my build and what I am looking for and he's going to use my HP Tuners interface (with already purchased credits) and get to work on the car. I'm excited to see how it runs and drives after the tuning, I'm sure it'll be a noticeable difference.
After playing around with it, I felt like I had a good idea of what it could do and quickly realized I didn't have the experience to tune the engine and don't want to 'practice' on the LS.
This morning I dropped the car off at Whitts Rod Shop here in GJ, they have a guy who is a LS tuning guru. I talked to him about my build and what I am looking for and he's going to use my HP Tuners interface (with already purchased credits) and get to work on the car. I'm excited to see how it runs and drives after the tuning, I'm sure it'll be a noticeable difference.