Old school rule changes....

I would like to get stickies allowed in the stock class without a penalty, old school is the only event all year that penalizes for stickies in the stock class. For those of us that run the whole rock crawling circuit and build our rigs for those events it hurts having to have a separate set of tires just for old school. The short course sticky tires are always available on KSL and other classifieds sites for super cheap and available to anyone......

That's my 2 cents I would love to hear other opinions....

I think the tire size rule should be based off of an actual measurement of the tire carcass.

I have a half-worn set of 36" swampers that are 1/2" actual height shorter than a brand new set of 33" muds i have. Yet there would be a penalty for the actual smaller tires merely because the sidewall stamp "says" that's they're bigger.

So i guess my complaint is the same, in either case-sidewall stamps aren't always the best ruling factor.

IMO You can get your hands on a set of DOT tires much easier than stickies and would put the rest of the competitors at a disadvantage who actually bring a street legal rig out.
Stock mod is meant to be a jumping off point for those who are just getting into competition or a way for those with a small budget or older equipment to have fun.

B2- Your thought are valid, consider this thought though: you have to remember you're dealing with an entirely volunteer run event, it gets too complicated to measure every competitors' tire.

Yes DOT tires are easier to get but stickies are available to anyone who wants them. There is so much traction on the delta courses that stickies are not really a huge advantage over a DOT tire on the stock courses.

Though on second thought tire pressure could alter such a measurement,and competitors could abuse that for the sake of better handicap.

So, now it makes sense to just stick with the sidewall stamp.

skippy said:

There is so much traction on the delta courses that stickies are not really a huge advantage over a DOT tire on the stock courses.

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This. My bald 33" KM2's stomped out your stickies. That's the reason I agree with this idea. If they're not made legal it would at least make sense to lower the penalty. I think now it's like 25 points, no? That's pretty significant and I don't think anyone can argue that a set of 35" stickies are of more benefit than a quality set of 37's which are legal with no penalty.

Stickies are stickies. There is a reason they are called stickies. I've competed (either spotting or driving) in every Delta competition since 2008 and my experience says sticky tires are a huge advantage over a DOT tire. A perfect example is the line to the left of the tower of Doom, three years ago there was a course set up that basically started you from a dead stop part way up the incline. Tyler Harper: who has a very similar rig to mine, but with a higher lift, short leaf springs and stickies would crawl it. My rig: with links, a much lower height and harder DOT's would not.

Please show me where I can buy a 37" sticky at a similar price to a DOT. I'm genuinely interested; I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'd love to get my hands on a set. Short course tires take-offs are almost always 35's. Stickies are not readily available to everyone, unless you run a 35" take-off or can swing that kind of budget.

(Also not to get too tangential: some desert or cut blank take-offs; while the not actually DOT approved, aren't always actually a "sticky" (based on durometer), often they can be a harder compound for longevity in longer races or races with rocky terrain to prevent chunking). I've personally seen someone complaining that their take-off General Grabbers didn't hookup like a friends' set of Grabbers: upon closer inspection he had indeed purchased a set of "desert compound" tires. Another example is a KRT versus a KRT-B.

Nate, I don't think anyone is arguing apples to oranges (that a quality 37" is worse than a sticky 35": mostly because that's ridiculous),
but apple to apples:
Please start a thread on Pirate explaining how DOT tires have better traction than Stickies and see how many people agree with you...

Drag strips have a high amount of traction; if traction is the crux of your argument, why would a competitor use a sticky tire there instead of a DOT?
The logic doesn't hold up.
Consider this as factual evidence: Competitors simply would not shell out sometimes double the price of a DOT tire if the traction was similar.

Lastly, there are countless scientific articles explaining in great detail how tire durometer effects coefficient of friction in various temperatures and surfaces.


Sure, lower the penalty, maybe even toss it, but don't ignore physics.


Even if you don't agree with me; you can see the position of someone writing the rules: stock mod is meant to bring people into the sport and most people just starting can't afford or don't care to run stickies on their weekend wheeler/ daily driver. Keeping the rules tight on the class makes it more competitive. More competition is more fun for the new guy and for spectators. Rock Crawling regains popularity as the everymans' motorsport and not the wallet wheelers'. More smiles more good times.

Peace.

Cool story bro
No one is ignoring physics nor do I care even a little bit what people on the PBB think. I personally believe that in the stock class at OSRC (I cannot stress the class or location enough) a 37" DOT Trep or similar would perform just as well or better than a 35" short course tire. In legends, pro mod or unlimited there is certainly a more significant difference, that's undeniable... but I did not witness short course stickies dominating the competition in stock class at all.
This is not my fight as I will not be competing in stock class nor do I have the tires in question- I was just adding my 2 cents to what Ryan said about them certainly not being worth a 25 point penalty.

Love.

My pbb comment could as easily be replaced with "any professional rock crawler."
There you go again with 37s and 35s... neither the location nor the class have any bearing on whether stickies work better at rock crawling.
And just fyi:
Rigs with stickies did indeed dominate the stock class for years before you competed.

Of course stickies are better. But on the stock class courses at old school there is not a single line that a sticky tire will dominate over a DOT tire. What I am trying to say is I have 8-10 events planned this year and old school is the only one that penalizes the use of stickies.....

But lets blow this up in typical internet arguing fashion

I think Stock class should remain a vehicle that can be driven on the roads. Tires with DOTs. There is a reason. We have fun in Stock class. Stickies do provide a unfair advantage to the rest of the stock class. There were climbs you did much better than others becasue of your stickies. I do see your argument if this is the only event penalties are issued for stock classes.

Show of hand here, how many of you run stickies on the street? That's what I thought. No sticky tires in stock class.

kmboren said:

There were climbs you did much better than others becasue of your stickies.

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Yep. I can think of at least one specific climb, that you guys made super-easily...enough that I decided to spotter-ride the same one. I ended up something like 30 points behind you on that one obstacle because I struggled on it and took cones.

BCGPER said:

Show of hand here, how many of you run stickies on the street? That's what I thought. No sticky tires in stock class.

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Well alrighty then. Discussion over.

I think it is always funny to hear the argument, "We need to change the rules because I have...." sometimes you have to think about the sport, the goal of the class, and how sponsors want to be represented. In W.E.ROCK we kept 37's in Pro Mod because every tire manufacturer has a 37 and without a class, competitively they become obsolete. Same thing OSRC has with stock class tires applies to W.E.ROCK's rulebook but for numerous reasons like listed above.

BCGPER said:

Show of hand here, how many of you run stickies on the street? That's what I thought. No sticky tires in stock class.

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Haha Ryan should've just asked you or Craig in the first place.

But it was ok to run stickies 2 years ago......

http://www.rme4x4.com/showthread.php?97486-Maxxis-Tires-and-OSRC-Competitors

So I didn't write the rules, but I'm just defending the person who did because the rule change was written to please people who are complaining a few years ago.

Here is a little history: The class used to be called stock mod and two rigs in particular followed the rules to the T and dominated the class (this is prior to 37s being allowed in stock by the way). The reason stickies have a penalty in the class is the exact reason that Ryan wants them to be allowed in the class, these two rigs ran the werock circuit and did very well. They were purpose built rigs but followed the rules. Now back then the class was called stock mod and it didn't require a windshield or a license plate or dot tires. They won so often that the other people who ran stock mod complained against them and couldn't figure out real reason why they weren't winning so they complained enough so that the class name was changed from stock mod to Street Stock requiring a windshield and the license plate and Dot tires. This rule change effectively pushed these guys out of the now Street Stock class and into the legends where because of their stock style modifications they weren't as competitive. Does this make sense?

skippy said:

I would like to get stickies allowed in the stock class without a penalty, old school is the only event all year that penalizes for stickies in the stock class. For those of us that run the whole rock crawling circuit and build our rigs for those events it hurts having to have a separate set of tires just for old school. The short course sticky tires are always available on KSL and other classifieds sites for super cheap and available to anyone......

That's my 2 cents I would love to hear other opinions....

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I'm on both sides of the fence here. WEROCK is a 'stock mod' class, where OSRC is a 'street stock'; its kind of hard to compare the two. there's nothing 'street' about stickies. i'm not against using stickies, but i feel that there's more of an argument for them in the 'stock mod' class in WEROCK, than there is in 'street stock' at old school.

Have there been any other changes to the rulebook for this year?

Johnny Quest said:

I'm on both sides of the fence here. WEROCK is a 'stock mod' class, where OSRC is a 'street stock'; its kind of hard to compare the two. there's nothing 'street' about stickies. i'm not against using stickies, but i feel that there's more of an argument for them in the 'stock mod' class in WEROCK, than there is in 'street stock' at old school.

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Says the guy with no first hand knowledge and no experience