Subaru...getting past the hype

My wife wants some kind of AWD for her next car. She's taken a fancy to Subaru Outbacks, since they have that uber-capable-in-the-snow mystic. Everyone up on the mountain has one, and when she mentions going to the cabin, that's what everyone recommends.

She's a car person, doesn't want an XJ, ZJ, WJ, FJ, JK. She's btdt with a cherokee ltd, suburban, sedan, minivan, etc. She'd rather have a VW Bug.

I could live with a Subaru, but there sure is a lot of hype and nonsense about the "symmetrical" all wheel drive. What a bunch of hogwash. I had to go to 5 different sites before I could find out what they are actually equipped with: various types of viscous or clutch-locked center differentials and rear limited slips. Now that's a legit reason why they would do well, not some bullscat about equal length axle shafts.

And basically, the automatics require some slippage before electronically engaging. That sucks...that's what I hated about my '99 Autotrac burb vs my '88 Cherokee limited (2h,4h,4full,4Lo). The Autotrac required some slippage to engage. Stupid. In the cherokee, in full time setting, no slippage was required, it just went.

Having said all that, my cousin has an Outback, and it does well (with good snow tires). Hmmm, was it an auto or stick? I listed the tech info at the bottom...is this true for all years, or just only recent models?

Are there any other AWD vehicles out there with similar systems? I actually like the F*rd Escape Hybrid, though I can tell you that if there is a limited slip offered, it wasn't in the one at my cabin last weekend. RAV4? Pilot? Ugh. Would rather have her keep the minivan and just get an XJ that sat most of the time.

Thinking an all-wheel-drive Hemi Charger wouldn't suck...

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Actual Subaru tech:

MODELS WITH FIVE-SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION – CONTINUOUS ALL-WHEEL DRIVE: A viscous-type locking center differential and limited-slip rear differential help distribute torque – normally configured at a 50/50 split front to rear. If wheel speed differs between front and rear axles, the center and/or rear differentials lock up to help distribute power to the wheels with the most traction.
MODELS WITH FOUR-SPEED AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS – ACTIVE ALL-WHEEL DRIVE: An electronically controlled variable transfer clutch and limited-slip rear differential distribute power to where traction is needed. Sensors monitor parameters such as wheel slippage, throttle position, and braking to help determine torque distribution and direct it to the wheels with optimum traction.
MODELS WITH FIVE-SPEED AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION – VARIABLE TORQUE DISTRIBUTION ALL-WHEEL DRIVE: As with Active All-Wheel Drive, an electronically controlled variable transfer clutch distributes power, but through a planetary-type center differential and a viscous-type limited-slip rear differential. Torque distribution is normally configured at a performance-oriented rear-wheel-biased 45/55 split front to rear. Sensors monitor the same parameters as for Active All-Wheel Drive.

What's your budget?

My girlfriend has an 01 forester She'll sell for cheap. The tranny is starting to have issues but I have a new tranny for it

We had a 2007 outback 2.5 auto. I don't think it had a limited slip. I still don't understand the hype for these cars, but women especially are buying into it.

I didn't dislike the car, but I never felt secure in low traction conditions with it. The AWD system works in such a way that you never feel anything. No slip here, no grab there, no bind anywhere. That actually disturbed me. You just feel disconnected from the road conditions.

In my opinion the tires are too wide for such a light car. We bought some special high zoot Toyo tires for it after my wife was blown off the road on a windy day. That's the only time she has ever lost control of a vehicle in 17 years of driving. The new tires didn't seem to help. It was still easy to put the car in a slide. It really needed narrower tires for less flotation. I would get some 16" steel oem wheels and mount a set of studded snow tires for the winter if you decide to buy one.

Maverick said:

I could live with a Subaru, but there sure is a lot of hype and nonsense about the "symmetrical" all wheel drive. What a bunch of hogwash.

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I've seen some Subaru cars do amazing stuff...but I don't think their bone stock non-performance models are anything ultra great. Why don't you wait till it snows one day and go test drive one? That's what I did when I bought my truck.

My wife drives a 99 outback with an automatic, and I've honestly never driven a better snow car on the street. Various trucks and 4x4 will trump it in the deep unbroken stuff, but on snowy and snow packed pavement it's untouchable. I've never felt disconnected from the road, just takes some getting used to... Find a church parking lot after a snow storm and before the plows and learn the vehicle.
I'm running big O euro tour tires on ours, and I've been really happy. They are great in the snow that we've had this winter, and they did great on dirt roads that I blasted over the summer and fall to go fishing. I don't think our outback has a limited slip rear, and it does wonderfully.

Go drive the new Rav4. Candace and I were in the same boat last summer, looking for a AWD small SUV/wagon that got good mileage. We really liked some of the Subaru products but after some seat time in the RAV4 she was sold. The RAV has 270 hp (yes your reading that right ), has a 3500lb tow capacity, offers a roomy back seat good for two adults and nice storage in the back... all for a bit less than the Subaru. I still think the Subaru is a great option but our preference quickly swayed after driving the Rav. Fast forward 6 months and she is still in love with it.

I still think that snow tires are the bomb digity on snow covered roads.

Is the road to "the cabin" paved? do you ever go up there and it hasn't been plowed? If it is not paved or doesn't regularly get plowed I think I would go more for a SUV than a car.

We have a bone stock 99 xj, we put a new set of goodyear all seasons on that thing, it was the best snow vehicle I ever drove. Then a year later I put a set of goodyear duratracs on my f250 and it did a little better than the xj on snow.

Over the summer we picked up a 98 honda civic. We put a set of blizzaks on that thing and is hands down much safer to drive on snow covered roads than the xj or f250 with duratracs.

We took the Honda out to snow covered parking lot and got going 30mph and slammed on the breaks and the damn car stopped. We got going about 25 or so and jerked the wheel and the damn car turned, it didn't really skid or slide those tires live up to the hype.

I have a co-worker that just got a Subaru and I have been wanting to do a parking lot test comparing them. But my wife always drives the honda when it snows and I drive the 4wd.

Search you tube for the tirerack.com test of winter tires, they do some tests on an ice rink, that was pretty much what sold me.

Lets say you buy a new set of snow tires every 2 years so you pay $250/year for snow tires. (lets ignore the fact your regular tires will last longer since you are not running them all year) figure you spend $2000-$5000 more for an AWD car that gets 4-6 mpg less that you have to drive all year... I did some quick head math (could be way off) but if you drive the vehicle 10,000 miles a year and got 5mpg better you would save about $250 in gas alone.

For me and my family I thought that spending less on a car and more on a set of snow tires was the safer thing to do, plus we drive it way more 10,000 miles a year so it was cheaper to do what we did.

AWD won't keep you from skidding off the road any better than front wheel drive, FWD cars have 4 wheel braking too...

Now AWD with a set of blizzaks... thats something else... I kind of drool thinking about it...

Nathan
- wow the most wheeling I have done since Oct is trying to do donuts in a parking lot in a honda civic...

damn I need to get the xj under the knife soon...

The Rav4 still looks like a man with a purse would drive one.
The face of the poor vehicle looks like it fell down the ugly tree, hit every branch on the way down and then smashed it's teeth into the roots.
The only redeeming value is that the upholstery and interior finish is nice, it has some handy slots on the passenger side, and the rear seat is big.

Get an Outback or a Impreza wagon, I kinda like the Foresters too: my cousin has a Forester X (the one with the 300hp+ WRX turbo motor in it) and it's just ridiculous fun in the snow, and since it's a Forester and not a WRX the insurance premiums aren't bad.

We had a 2001 Forester and it was the BEST snow vehicle I have had. We put on some middle of the road all seasons and it went anywhere I pointed it and never got stuck (not that I was trying to get it stuck). I drove it through a unplowed back road around my old house with snow over the bumper....little subie looked like a submarine with all the snow going over the top My theory is its balanced. Its not too heavy or light, not over powered, etc. that it just works.

gravesdiggerxj said:

The Rav4 still looks like a man with a purse would drive one.
The face of the poor vehicle looks like it fell down the ugly tree, hit every branch on the way down and then smashed it's teeth into the roots.
The only redeeming value is that the upholstery and interior finish is nice, it has some handy slots on the passenger side, and the rear seat is big.

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I completely agree with all of this.

Our 2007 had 17" aluminum wheels. I really think the wide tires are my only beef with that car. Some skinny, studded snow tires would have made it a monster snow car. We averaged 29 mpg in ours with 95% highway driving, most of that above 80 mph. I can't imagine a person getting less than 25 mpg with the heaviest foot.

They can be had quite cheap if you look at used.

Why not look at the Saab 9-2X? It's a Subaru WRX with a Saab badge.

cruiseroutfit said:

Go drive the new Rav4. Candace and I were in the same boat last summer, looking for a AWD small SUV/wagon that got good mileage. We really liked some of the Subaru products but after some seat time in the RAV4 she was sold. The RAV has 270 hp (yes your reading that right ), has a 3500lb tow capacity, offers a roomy back seat good for two adults and nice storage in the back... all for a bit less than the Subaru. I still think the Subaru is a great option but our preference quickly swayed after driving the Rav. Fast forward 6 months and she is still in love with it.

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I'll 2nd the Rav4. My fiance has a 2009 and I've been more than impressed with it, on the road and off. It's never slipped on the snow and ice, unless I was trying to slide it Great power, as Kurt mentioned, great room inside, well built and it's a Toyota. She's had her's for just over a year and a half and still loves it.

i will throw this out there for you since i work on them.

a vw tiguan, they have been out a few years and are comperable to a subaru, you can get them with 4 motion which is quattro like the audis have.

the 2.0 turbo has 200hp and moves very very well, we like them a ton me and the wife are just waiting for the tdi model to come out next year so that we can get 40plus miles to the gallon.

I was just going to mention Audi's. My wife and I are on our 4th one now. We have had 3 A4's and for the longest we have had a TT for 3.5 years. After our first Quattro AWD, we said we nould never get another car without AWD. And with how nice Audi's are on the inside it's jsut the perfect combination. And the upkeep hasn't been nearly as bad as people think they are.

She's a car person, doesn't want an XJ, ZJ, WJ, FJ, JK. She's btdt with a cherokee ltd, suburban, sedan, minivan, etc. She'd rather have a VW Bug.

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My Bug does great in the snow. Some studded tires and good weight distribution make all the difference. Of course things get interesting if you get too much snow because of ground clearance...

I have had 3 Subaru's starting with a 93 impreza, a 03 forester and recently added a 99 Outback..
In the snow they rock.. I have never put anything other than good all season radials on them. Don't feel disconnected from the road a bit.. get a manual and you will have a bit more power at your disposal as most of the power is in the Upper RPM's and you won't get to utilize it in an Auto.
The info you posted is correct for most of the recent years 93 +, older stuff is a bit different
You can with a little easy wiring bypass the electronic controller on the transfer case and make it full time - though it really isn't needed

TooeleCherokee said:

You can with a little easy wiring bypass the electronic controller on the transfer case and make it full time - though it really isn't needed

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I'd really like to know more about this? what year/model range are you talking?

Owning a repair shop in Broomfield, Colorado, all I see are Subarus. I cut my teeth at sixteen in an old GL wagon. That said, they are parts hogs. They eat timing belts, water pumps, cam and crank seals and belt tensioners. If you go used, make sure you get one that has been serviced regularly. We towed a 2001 with 190,000 miles, 10,000 miles after its second timing belt was replaced, the motor was blown up because the tensioner and idler pulley let go and wadded up the belt at the crank. $3,300 worth of damage to a car worth $3,400...... The valve covers leak like crazy and the mileage we've seen is not that good. I think most people are embarrassed their beloved Subarus get sh!tty mileage so they lie and say its better than 25mpg.... Regardless, I am an Audi guy all day long. A4, Allroad and A3. I miss the twin turbo Allroad. Too bad my family got bigger than those cars could handle...

I will personally vouch for the truth of Kurt and Brett's posts. It hauls ass, and fit all four of us (me, Kurt, Candace, and Steve By-God Jackson) and all of our luggage. Would probably have fit Candace's bike in there with it all too. Let me restate:

The latest Rav4 is a freakin' rocket that is comfortable for 6' adults in the back, and holds a lot of luggage. Did I mention it scoots? Cuz it does.

That said, Subarus aren't a bad choice. TooeleCherokee is convincing me that my own wife's desire for one will not cause my house to burn down. He might be right.

cruiseroutfit said:

Go drive the new Rav4. Candace and I were in the same boat last summer, looking for a AWD small SUV/wagon that got good mileage. We really liked some of the Subaru products but after some seat time in the RAV4 she was sold. The RAV has 270 hp (yes your reading that right ), has a 3500lb tow capacity, offers a roomy back seat good for two adults and nice storage in the back... all for a bit less than the Subaru. I still think the Subaru is a great option but our preference quickly swayed after driving the Rav. Fast forward 6 months and she is still in love with it.

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