Ryan
Registered User
- Location
- Pleasant Grove, UT
ATTN: Mike Mills--UROC rules questions, and a little rant...
First off Mike, please note that these are just my opinions, and that they are not directed at you or any one else specifically. I geuss I'm basically just asking for a little clarification on some rules, while venting a little in the same post, LOL. The specific rule clarification questions are directed towards you, the criticism and other blah blah blah is not.
I've just read through the new(est) UROC rules, and I have a couple of questions, just to be certain.
#1--Winches must use rope (non metal) with a minimum burst strength of nine thousand five hundred (9,500) pounds. Rope must be in acceptable condition with minimal fraying or kinks.
I get from the rule quoted above that no metal wire winch cables will be allowed, ONLY plasma rope(or whatever you want to call it) type winch cables. True?
#2-- Six (6) point mounting cages covering the driver and spotter constructed of round DOM (drawn over mandrel) mild steel tubing are required for the basic roll cage using .120 minimum wall tubing for the main bars (chromoly alloy steel (A 519 grade 4130) may be .090 minimum wall)...Square tubing, grade A 500 or A 513, 1.5" minimum cross section with .120" minimum wall is also acceptable.
I get from the rule quoted above that HREW tubing is not allowed for the basic roll cage, only DOM(although I'm not too certain how exactly you would verify this. ) However; the rule quoted below is somewhat confusing to me, considering the above rule.
Roll Bar construction must be welded and connection points of the roll cage must tie in to the frame of the vehicle. Body mounts are considered a tie in point. Bolt in cages are approved at factory mounting locations. Any exception must be approved by UROC.
What is meant by 'bolt in cages'? Smittybuilt, etc.? Or is it meant to imply 'DOM bolt in cages'? Smittybuilt(just as an example) doesn't use DOM to build their cages, and would therefore not be allowed, correct? What is meant by 'factory mounting locations'? Is this along the lines of 'you can use a Smittybuilt cage(example), but only if it's mounted to the vehicle the way Smittybuilt designed it to be mounted.'? Or is all this aimed at something different entirely, such as a stock TJ roll bar? Sorry for the nit-pickin', LOL. I'm just tryin' to understand it.
#3--Once the spotter or driver leaves the vehicle they have used one spotter token and receive a five (+5) point penalty and do not receive the five (-5) point deduction.
I'm pretty sure I got this one, but just to be certain:
Example: My spotter rides, and gets out in the middle of the obstacle. We clean the obstacle with 0 points. Is our final obstacle score now 5? And if he had remained in the vehicle, our score would be -5, correct? This is my understanding, I just want to be certain.
I also noticed the new requirement of door bars and foot bars(or doors, window mesh, etc.) and a bar behind the seats.
Please note that I am in favor of all of these rules.
Okay--:rant on:
Is there an intention to enforce them? Maybe only if someone protests?
Let me tell you where I'm coming from. So far, I believe every time I have competed in UROC, I have spent time and money to make modifications to my vehicle so that it would comply to the rules. Then I show up to tech inspection, or the first day of competition, and notice that a large portion, if not the majority, of the competitors were allowed to compete without having to make the same modifications to thier vehicles.
Examples:
Gussetts. I wouldn't have stayed up until 3:00 in the morning the night before the competition adding gussets to my cage, had I known that the vast majority of competitors would be allowed to compete without them.
Helmet. I would NOT have used any old helmet I had laying around(been to the hospital one too many times), although I COULD have saved $90 on a helmet, had I known that with a little wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the tech official, he'd let me use any old helmet, rather than requiring me to have a DOT approved helmet like the rules state.
Metal over driver seat in cage. I wouldn't have spent the time to add sheet metal to the top of my cage, in the parking lot on the way out of town to a competition, had I known that I would be one of the few who actually complied with the rule.
What does it say to competitors when they are given a 'Tech Cheat Sheet' prior to tech inspection, with a list of the rules that officials will ACTUALLY be checking? If there is going to be such a thing, I would prefer to have it sent to me prior to my arriving at the competition, so that I can choose not to waste my time and money on modification that I otherwise would not make were they not supposedly required.
I understand the 'spirit of the law' and 'letter of the law' relationship, but I'm not talking about "Well, yes you added gussets, but they're 1/4" too short. Sorry." I would confidently say that this has never happened.
I'm talking about "No gussets? Don't worry about it, you're okay." OR "No gussets? Okay, but get 'em put in for next time." The latter might be okay, if there was actually a note made and a follow up next time, rather than just repeating the experience at the next competition, while other people are actually adding the gussetts like the rules require.
If I'm way off on any of this, please, let me know. I realize that Craig doesn't want to turn anybody away. I don't either. I also realize that if I really wanted too, I could submit a stack of written protests to vehicles that don't comply with all the rules, and if the protests were valid according to the published rules, I believe they would be upheld. That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking more about being encouraged to "see if you can get away with it.", maybe even indirectly, by way of things like "Tech Cheat Sheets", and letting people off on rules designed to ensure the safety of the competitors and spectators, and thereby ensuring the longevity of the sport.
Why would a competitor make the required modifications to comply with the rules, if they slide right through tech inspection every time without them?
If I show up at St. George with a steel winch cable and no door bars, are you going to stop me from competing? I would hope that you would.
I think it would only take prohibiting one or two people from competing due to non-compliance before people start to get the message, and the problem would start to solve itselt(that is if you view it as a problem). Either that, or a good law suit or two due to personal injury that might just shut down the whole thing at the same time. Personally, I'd rather see the first. Even if it was me being sent home.
Okay---:rant off:
Ahhhhhhhhhhh.
I feel muuuuuuuuuuuch better now.
First off Mike, please note that these are just my opinions, and that they are not directed at you or any one else specifically. I geuss I'm basically just asking for a little clarification on some rules, while venting a little in the same post, LOL. The specific rule clarification questions are directed towards you, the criticism and other blah blah blah is not.
I've just read through the new(est) UROC rules, and I have a couple of questions, just to be certain.
#1--Winches must use rope (non metal) with a minimum burst strength of nine thousand five hundred (9,500) pounds. Rope must be in acceptable condition with minimal fraying or kinks.
I get from the rule quoted above that no metal wire winch cables will be allowed, ONLY plasma rope(or whatever you want to call it) type winch cables. True?
#2-- Six (6) point mounting cages covering the driver and spotter constructed of round DOM (drawn over mandrel) mild steel tubing are required for the basic roll cage using .120 minimum wall tubing for the main bars (chromoly alloy steel (A 519 grade 4130) may be .090 minimum wall)...Square tubing, grade A 500 or A 513, 1.5" minimum cross section with .120" minimum wall is also acceptable.
I get from the rule quoted above that HREW tubing is not allowed for the basic roll cage, only DOM(although I'm not too certain how exactly you would verify this.
) However; the rule quoted below is somewhat confusing to me, considering the above rule.Roll Bar construction must be welded and connection points of the roll cage must tie in to the frame of the vehicle. Body mounts are considered a tie in point. Bolt in cages are approved at factory mounting locations. Any exception must be approved by UROC.
What is meant by 'bolt in cages'? Smittybuilt, etc.? Or is it meant to imply 'DOM bolt in cages'? Smittybuilt(just as an example) doesn't use DOM to build their cages, and would therefore not be allowed, correct? What is meant by 'factory mounting locations'? Is this along the lines of 'you can use a Smittybuilt cage(example), but only if it's mounted to the vehicle the way Smittybuilt designed it to be mounted.'? Or is all this aimed at something different entirely, such as a stock TJ roll bar? Sorry for the nit-pickin', LOL. I'm just tryin' to understand it.
#3--Once the spotter or driver leaves the vehicle they have used one spotter token and receive a five (+5) point penalty and do not receive the five (-5) point deduction.
I'm pretty sure I got this one, but just to be certain:
Example: My spotter rides, and gets out in the middle of the obstacle. We clean the obstacle with 0 points. Is our final obstacle score now 5? And if he had remained in the vehicle, our score would be -5, correct? This is my understanding, I just want to be certain.
I also noticed the new requirement of door bars and foot bars(or doors, window mesh, etc.) and a bar behind the seats.
Please note that I am in favor of all of these rules.
Okay--:rant on:
Is there an intention to enforce them? Maybe only if someone protests?
Let me tell you where I'm coming from. So far, I believe every time I have competed in UROC, I have spent time and money to make modifications to my vehicle so that it would comply to the rules. Then I show up to tech inspection, or the first day of competition, and notice that a large portion, if not the majority, of the competitors were allowed to compete without having to make the same modifications to thier vehicles.
Examples:
Gussetts. I wouldn't have stayed up until 3:00 in the morning the night before the competition adding gussets to my cage, had I known that the vast majority of competitors would be allowed to compete without them.
Helmet. I would NOT have used any old helmet I had laying around(been to the hospital one too many times), although I COULD have saved $90 on a helmet, had I known that with a little wink-wink-nudge-nudge to the tech official, he'd let me use any old helmet, rather than requiring me to have a DOT approved helmet like the rules state.
Metal over driver seat in cage. I wouldn't have spent the time to add sheet metal to the top of my cage, in the parking lot on the way out of town to a competition, had I known that I would be one of the few who actually complied with the rule.
What does it say to competitors when they are given a 'Tech Cheat Sheet' prior to tech inspection, with a list of the rules that officials will ACTUALLY be checking? If there is going to be such a thing, I would prefer to have it sent to me prior to my arriving at the competition, so that I can choose not to waste my time and money on modification that I otherwise would not make were they not supposedly required.
I understand the 'spirit of the law' and 'letter of the law' relationship, but I'm not talking about "Well, yes you added gussets, but they're 1/4" too short. Sorry." I would confidently say that this has never happened.
I'm talking about "No gussets? Don't worry about it, you're okay." OR "No gussets? Okay, but get 'em put in for next time." The latter might be okay, if there was actually a note made and a follow up next time, rather than just repeating the experience at the next competition, while other people are actually adding the gussetts like the rules require.
If I'm way off on any of this, please, let me know. I realize that Craig doesn't want to turn anybody away. I don't either. I also realize that if I really wanted too, I could submit a stack of written protests to vehicles that don't comply with all the rules, and if the protests were valid according to the published rules, I believe they would be upheld. That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking more about being encouraged to "see if you can get away with it.", maybe even indirectly, by way of things like "Tech Cheat Sheets", and letting people off on rules designed to ensure the safety of the competitors and spectators, and thereby ensuring the longevity of the sport.
Why would a competitor make the required modifications to comply with the rules, if they slide right through tech inspection every time without them?
If I show up at St. George with a steel winch cable and no door bars, are you going to stop me from competing? I would hope that you would.
I think it would only take prohibiting one or two people from competing due to non-compliance before people start to get the message, and the problem would start to solve itselt(that is if you view it as a problem). Either that, or a good law suit or two due to personal injury that might just shut down the whole thing at the same time. Personally, I'd rather see the first. Even if it was me being sent home.
Okay---:rant off:
Ahhhhhhhhhhh.
I feel muuuuuuuuuuuch better now.
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