Best GPS for backcountry/4x4 use?

[DAA]

A P.P.S...

The title of this thread is "best GPS for backcountry use".

At this point, my opinion, that would be the Garmin Montana.

Android nav apps aren't ready for prime time in backcountry, in vehicle, off road use just yet, in my opinion. The hardware is neat, I'm liking my new Galaxy Tab S, and using it for a lot of other things, the multiple use aspect is a strong appeal and I totally get that. And cost wise, which is what drove me in the Android direction, a tablet is significantly less expensive.

But zeroing in on strictly backcountry off road GPS use, and which is "best", my opinion, an Android device running Android apps doesn't even compete with a good dedicated GPS like the Montana.

- DAA

 

[gahi]

Have you tried Orux using the garmin vector maps?

 

[TRD270]

I wonder if the Garmin Monterra would be the happy medium. Its quite pricey but would give you the ability to use all the mapping systems since it is a android based garmin handheld. Its a bit bigger than the montana and has a more responsive screen.

 

[DAA]

Have you tried Orux using the garmin vector maps?

I have not! Had not even heard of it. I'll definitely investigate though. Delorme doesn't say their maps are vector, only "proprietary", but the way they work, they pretty much have to be vector. And other than wishing the Delorme maps were more complete, I do like them way better than any of the raster maps the other Android apps that I have tried all use. They scale so much better, like a real GPS.

And for in-vehicle, off road use, the Delorme UI is also much better than either BCN or Gaia. Again, much more like a real GPS.

Being able to use the Garmin vector maps on my Android device would be great. Especially if there is a good UI to go with them. Thanks for the heads up, I'll look into Orux.

I know I'm just whining and complaining endlessly, but the BCN UI is just soooooo bad for in-vehicle use. But I do realize that it was designed for hiking, with obviously no thought given to the way I'm trying to use it. Maybe worth mentioning, I did put in a couple of very simple UI feature requests to BCN, I didn't get any response for two weeks and then it was basically "uhhh, yeah, that's never going to happen...". I think BCN is literally just one guy, that apparently doesn't even check the BCN email more than once or twice a month. No support there, no hope for any improvements.

I wonder if the Garmin Monterra would be the happy medium. Its quite pricey but would give you the ability to use all the mapping systems since it is a android based garmin handheld. Its a bit bigger than the montana and has a more responsive screen.

Not at all sure. I haven't really looked into the Monterra very close, as soon as I read "Android" I just kind of thought, why spend that much for Android? But, I really don't know anything about the actual capabilities. It might be the cats meow, if the price can be absorbed. Cost really is the only thing that pushed me in the Android direction in the first place.

- DAA

 

[gahi]

I organize them by state, I use ones downloaded from gpsfiledepot. I use the same ones on my garmin 62s. They dont read as well on the phone, but the topos, and features are there.
Put the folders by state in the mapfiles directory of the oruxmaps app. There are some map settings to change the sizes of fonts, and things like that. The entire state of utah is 153 mb in vector format.

 

[DAA]

The entire state of utah is 153 mb in vector format.

Nice. I did finally get all of Utah downloaded in the BCN Accuterra maps, plus some areas CalTopo as well. It's about 30GB, just for Utah. Then I had to download another 20GB for parts of Nevada, Idaho and Wyoming. Almost 50GB, for one complete state and just parts of just some of the surrounding states. But the BCN downloads suck balls too - you have to go over them with a fine tooth comb as it leaves out random blocks of map data when zoomed in past a certain level (no matter what zoom you set in the download properties). So you have to zoom in tight and pan all over looking for the missing blocks to re-download. Just a huge, royal, time wasting, pain in the poop chute.

- DAA

 

[sixstringsteve]

Android nav apps aren't ready for prime time in backcountry, in vehicle, off road use just yet, in my opinion.

But zeroing in on strictly backcountry off road GPS use, and which is "best", my opinion, an Android device running Android apps doesn't even compete with a good dedicated GPS like the Montana.

Give trimble a try. It's $3/month, and I haven't use a montana before, but trimble has given me everything I want. Plus as an elite member you get land ownership overlays, so you can tell if you're on BLM, private, or national forest land. That's sure come in handy when looking for a legal place to camp in an area I'm not familiar with.

 

[DAA]

I did look at Trimble, but it just didn't look very compelling to me. The feature set and UI look pretty good, but not any better than Delorme. But the Trimble maps are raster, while Delorme are vector. So, for the money - they both are subscription based and both cost about the same, I thought Delorme looked better. I greatly prefer vector maps for my purposes. The maps need to be complete to be useful though, of course...

Delorme does show basic public/private land owner status too, by default. But, that's not anything I care about, it just isn't something that ever matters to me. I wouldn't have much if any use for any of the customizable layers with Trimble.

Dunno... If it turns out that the Delorme maps are as incomplete for more of my areas of operation as they were for my Wyoming trip this past week, the best UI and awesomest vector maps in the world won't make up for that. At that point, it might be worth living with the Trimble raster maps instead, if the UI is as good as Delorme, which is to say, much better than BCN or Gaia.

I dislike the subscription model and web only functionality for some core features with both Delorme and Trimble though.

- DAA

 

[gahi]

screen shot of orux on my old phone, all the shaded areas can be hidden

 

[DAA]

So, I have not had time to try Orux yet. Hopefully get to it soon.

Just a couple data points/whining/complaining to add about Delorme Earthmate. I put in a support request for the screen going to sleep issue. That's a bug, as far as I'm concerned. None of the other Android nav apps I've used do that and it's a PITA.

It took a full week to get any response and the response was that it's a "feature", not a bug. It's to save my poor, poor device battery from going dead. Never mind that nobody uses a nav device in a vehicle without being plugged in and battery life is a complete non-issue. But, anyway, they aren't going to fix it. Which is a shame. I asked a couple of the developers at work that do both Android and IOS stuff and they said it's literally a couple minutes work to add that to the code.

In my support request I also asked about the chances for adding waypoint labels to the map screen. I have thousands of waypoints going back more than a decade and I frequently see them on the map screen without having any idea what they are without labels. Not being labeled, makes it a huge PITA to have to stop the vehicle and navigate menu options to the get a waypoint list and sort by distance etc. to try and figure out what they are. At least Gaia lets you tap the non-labeled waypoint and see a label, Earthmate has a clunky feature that is supposed to do the same, but only works about 1/3 of the time. Anyway, I asked about that too and was told that I can go online and re-name them. Well no shit Sherlock... But that doesn't answer my question in the least.

For the really cheap Android apps, I don't expect any support. But, at $30 a year, Earthmate is quite an expensive 'droid app and I do expect a little support. But, I can't get any.

A couple other features that I don't like which are borderline deal killers for me... A limit of only 500 waypoints at a time. What a crock of crap... No other 'droid nav app I've used has any limit, let alone a measly 500. I have 500 waypoints just in Anasazi ruins and rock art alone. Hundreds more just in coyote kills. That's not even starting to count any of the turns for obscure two tracks, ghost towns, cabins, caves, hot springs, fishing holes, camp spots, etc., etc., etc. that I have marked. Only being able to store 500 at a time in the app means I have to go online and remove/add waypoints for EVERY trip. Huge PITA and completely unnecessary. Delorme claims allowing more waypoints would make the app sluggish but none of the other apps that do not have this limit are sluggish.

Earthmate also limits tracks to only 500 points each. Which, makes them pretty rough, cutting off big chunks of corner and lacking any detail in the twisties etc. Not nearly as big a deal to me as the waypoint limit, but, still - Garmin was allowing way more points than that 10 years ago on hardware with only a fraction of the computing power and storage of a modern cell phone or tablet. None of the other 'droid apps have this limit. It's arbitrary and ridiculous.

Anyhoo... I want to love Delorme. The vector maps just work soooooo much better than the lousy raster maps all the other 'droid nav apps that I've tried use. Some of the UI elements are better than any of the others too. But, there are just some things about Earthmate that each by itself is a borderline deal killer for me. Add several of those things together, plus having to pay a yearly subscription, plus a complete lack of support to go along with the annual subscription, and I can't love it... If they don't improve it substantially in the next year, there's no way I'm paying for another year.

So, for now, I'm back to using Backcountry Navigator (BCN). Which, for all the things about it I hate, still seems to be the best overall mix for my purposes. Gaia, I think I actually like better, but, it freezes up on my device way too often, renders it completely unusable for me, so, it's not even up for consideration.

I hope Orux is a lot better. Or I find something else that is. All of the 'droid apps I've tried so far pretty much suck, in my opinion. Also, my opinion, there is a decent little niche market with the current "expedition" and "overlanding" fad, that some developer needs to swoop in and take advantage of. These are people that spend money on gear and seem to like to run in the same direction, build them a decent "expo" nav app and they'll pay $50 a year for it I bet. I was hoping to get some attention from BCN, Gaia or Delorme in this regard, but none of my support or feature requests to any of them have resulted in any hope at all.

- DAA

 

[Caleb]

This is great feedback on the Delorme stuff. I was having a hard time deciding between Garmin (tried and true) and the Delorme (a little more shiny than the Garmin) for my next standalone GPS. I think your feedback has really solidified me in the Garmin camp.

 

[Tonkaman]

Thank for all the feedback Dave. I really appreciate how much you contribute here.

 

[CobraNutt]

Thank for all the feedback Dave. I really appreciate how much you contribute here.

X2!!

 

[DAA]

Another, brief FYI update on Delorme Earthmate.

I communicated my disappointment with the support response I got to Delorme, just got a reply back from them. Which, was short, sweet and to the point. My concerns are duly noted, but they currently have no intentions of addressing them. The important part, quote:

"... the Earthmate application is not intended for in-vehicle use...".

At least they are straightforward about it. I'm attempting to get a dialog with product management, as I think I can make a pretty solid business case for them to try and appeal to our market. With just a few feature/config tweaks, Delorme could put an "expo" spin on this product for very minimal investment. I'm not optimistic that they'll even talk to me, let alone listen, at all, let alone do anything. But, what can it hurt to try...

- DAA

 

[Kevin B.]

That's good feedback, Dave. I found a Windows app called Maps Pro that has access to lots of good maps and will take a Bluetooth GPS signal, and another app that I hope will let it get that signal off my cell phone so I won't have to buy an external Bluetooth. I hope it all works out, because from what you're saying I don't think I want to drop $100 on the Delorme Topo software.

 

[DAA]

Well... This is the Android app I'm talking about, not the Windows package.

I've not used the Delorme Windows package for many, many years. Didn't care for it at all, back then (the maps lacked dirt road detail being the main fault), found several that I liked better, with my favorite being Terrain Navigator. Which I've been using for 20 years on Windows machines. But, it's hideously expensive to get into now (hell, it was hideously expensive back then, you have to buy each state and I bought six of them...), could not, would not recommend TN based on cost alone, if nothing else.

I think you'll have to spend more on a Windows app, but will also probably have a better experience than these cheap, crummy 'droid apps.

- DAA

 

[TRD270]

So I was watching the teaser/build video for xoverland and they said they were using Hema Maps. Anyone have any experience? Looks like they are mostly focused on Australia, on iOS they do have a US Atlas that says it has back country roads. Looks like xoverland is using an iPad but they didn't get much into it on the intro videos, I don't have an android device available so not sure if its even on that platform. The US atlas is $12 I might pull the trigger just to see what its like claims to only be something like 250 MB for offline use.

Edit: I looked on the google store and it appears they only have the Australia map on the Android platform

 

[TRD270]

Also to follow up on Dave's Delorme comments, I'm happy with the map detail and ease of use. Its great my tracks go on all of my devices (as long as the subscription is active) the maps will still work after it expires. Out of the apps i've tried I like it the best for ease of seeing where I'm going while driving. The roads are clear and easy to see unlike a true topo, the maps take next to no memory. I also really like it paired with my iPhone and Garmin Glo for hiking.

I have found however the accuracy of roads/trails leaves a bit to be desired especially on hiking trails. I've hiked with it in the wasatch on several trails as well as a recent visit to Hawaii. On almost every trail at some point the map and the actual trail are very different, in some cases not even on the right side of a ridge.

Dave also mentioned Terrain Navigator Pro, I actually have this on my work computer and its what we use for the search and rescue team. It is a fantastic program with a lot of features, but it does cost an arm and a leg and on top of that arm and a leg to keep current and use certain features you also have to cough up a hefty subscription. That being said it is truly a one stop program, great detail, 3D terrain mode, you can print high def maps of any area in pretty much any scale. But very very spendy

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So I was watching the teaser/build video for xoverland and they said they were using Hema Maps. Anyone have any experience? Looks like they are mostly focused on Australia, on iOS they do have a US Atlas that says it has back country roads. Looks like xoverland is using an iPad but they didn't get much into it on the intro videos, I don't have an android device available so not sure if its even on that platform. The US atlas is $12 I might pull the trigger just to see what its like claims to only be something like 250 MB for offline use.

Edit: I looked on the google store and it appears they only have the Australia map on the Android platform

US is coming soon w/HEMA. I'll have some more updates there soon!

We used them extensively in Australia with fantastic results and we used them a fair bit on XOverland backed by a Garmin Montana with downloaded maps. HEMA has some neat plans for the US market and I hope to be involved in them

 

[DAA]

Just a public service message regarding Android devices and apps for backcountry nav...

I had all my maps for all my nav apps downloaded to the 128 GB microSD card in my Tab S. Just to get all of Utah and parts of some surrounding states in BCN was over 40 GB and took quite some time to download (some every day for a couple of weeks).

Well... One of my concerns with using a consumer grade Android tablet for navigation, is durability and reliability and that bit me this past weekend when the microSD card with all my nav data on it was found on the second morning of the trip to have died in it's sleep during the night.

Actually not a big deal, really. I'm familiar with the area I was in and didn't need a GPS. As always, had my trusty paper maps, too - had I needed them.

But, anyway... So I had about 30GB worth of the BCN maps backed up on my desktop, thankfully. But I'm still having to re-download a lot of them and all the maps for my other applications, Gaia, Delorme, CoPilot etc. It's a moderately annoying PITA to have to do all this again. I'll be backing up the entire SD card from now on. But, I'm finally getting to the point of this message!

Delorme, since it uses vector maps (if only they'd address a few nagging UI and usability issues, it would be my app of choice!), takes up only a tiny bit of storage space compared to the apps that use raster maps. Topos for the entire western half of the US, plus a digital atlas of the world take up only a few GB of space. So! My bit of advice, is if you have multiple nav apps like I do, and one of them is Delorme or another app that uses vector maps like Delorme, load the Delorme maps on the INTERNAL device storage. That way, when my SD card craps the bed again, I can still use Delorme as a backup since those maps will be stored internally.

- DAA