Any short arm fans? I know the general population goes long arm but after much thought, consideration, and discussion with shops that know me and my jeep I've decided the long arm just isn't worth the cost to me. So I'm reaching out to see who likes what and why. Right now I have a mix of teraflex and metalcloak. I'm pretty happy with my set up bit it could use some refreshing. I'm on the fence of getting all new arms of a single brand or just replacing the ends.
Short arm fans?
- Thread starter Omgbecki
- Start date
DAA
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Bountiful, UT
I've been super pleased with Currie Johnny Joints. Mine have 100,000 miles on them. They have never made any noise. I pulled them all apart for inspecting recently. The rear uppers were getting worn so I rebuilt them. But that was cheap and easy and they should be good for another 100K.
Seems like most other joints out there, I hear about how fast they wear out, how they make noise etc. The genuine Currie joints are pretty awesome in my opinion.
- DAA
Seems like most other joints out there, I hear about how fast they wear out, how they make noise etc. The genuine Currie joints are pretty awesome in my opinion.
- DAA
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
Depends on the Jeep. JKs can get away with more lift before they need long arms. TJs and ZJs not so much.
I'm at 4 inches and never going higher. Same with my 33s. Might even take half a inch off when I change springs. What do you mean by "getting away" that's always confusing to me. I mean my set up hasn't really ever let me down.
DAA
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Bountiful, UT
I think what he probably means is that at some point as you go up with lift, and the control arm angles start getting really steep, the drawbacks of a short arm become so pronounced you'll hate your rig. The drawbacks being primarily a horrible ride and suspension jacking - where as a wheel droops the arm becomes so vertical it actually "jacks" the rig. If the goal is to have a rig that just "flows" over the terrain, steep control arm angles are bad ju-ju.
The longer the arms, the less steep the angles for a given lift height. All else being equal. JK's have longer arms.
It's whatever works for a fella, but for myself, I consider 4" as high as I would ever consider going on a short arm TJ. And actually, I guess really, for myself, I don't think I'd even do that. 3" is really my limit.
- DAA
The longer the arms, the less steep the angles for a given lift height. All else being equal. JK's have longer arms.
It's whatever works for a fella, but for myself, I consider 4" as high as I would ever consider going on a short arm TJ. And actually, I guess really, for myself, I don't think I'd even do that. 3" is really my limit.
- DAA
lhracing
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Layton, UT
When I had a TJ and a 4" lift the ride was harsh. I added the long arms and it was much better. As Dave said the angle of the arms make a big difference in the ride, the steeper the angle the more harsh thing get.
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
So more than a few inches of lift and it makes the angle of your suspension arms fairly steep.
Two things happen:
#1 shortens your wheelbase and the driveline (angles suffer with an already short wheelbase) but more dramaticly the pinion angle changes pretty drastically as the suspension cycles.
#2 changes how your suspension reacts to obstacles. Steep control arm angles increase your squat/ anti squat numbers. If you watch a TJ in short arms with 4"+ of lift (for example) try to to climb a steep obstacle you'll notice suspension "jacking" the rear suspension extends out and actually want to lift the rig and you'll see a bunch of torque twist where the driver front tire will want to lift off the ground and the whole body of the Jeep lean passenger.
Longer control arms bring down that instant center or point of convergence (where the ucas and lcas would meet if you drew imaginary lines forward) this effects your squat, anti-squat numbers and basically the whole suspension reacts more predictably.
Flatter control arm angles also transfer fewer vertical forces into the chassis (as you hit bumps) and let the suspension work more effectively.
Not only that but most long arm kits for TJs get rid of the rear trackbar and that helps you get more droop without binding (because the rear axle no longer swings left to right as it droops and compresses vertically) and changes your roll center too.
The only real downsides are: cost, time on fabrication, and a slight loss of ground clearance.
Clear as mud?
Two things happen:
#1 shortens your wheelbase and the driveline (angles suffer with an already short wheelbase) but more dramaticly the pinion angle changes pretty drastically as the suspension cycles.
#2 changes how your suspension reacts to obstacles. Steep control arm angles increase your squat/ anti squat numbers. If you watch a TJ in short arms with 4"+ of lift (for example) try to to climb a steep obstacle you'll notice suspension "jacking" the rear suspension extends out and actually want to lift the rig and you'll see a bunch of torque twist where the driver front tire will want to lift off the ground and the whole body of the Jeep lean passenger.
Longer control arms bring down that instant center or point of convergence (where the ucas and lcas would meet if you drew imaginary lines forward) this effects your squat, anti-squat numbers and basically the whole suspension reacts more predictably.
Flatter control arm angles also transfer fewer vertical forces into the chassis (as you hit bumps) and let the suspension work more effectively.
Not only that but most long arm kits for TJs get rid of the rear trackbar and that helps you get more droop without binding (because the rear axle no longer swings left to right as it droops and compresses vertically) and changes your roll center too.
The only real downsides are: cost, time on fabrication, and a slight loss of ground clearance.
Clear as mud?
astjp2
Active Member
- Location
- Riverdale/Alaska
Are your metal cloak's worn? if so I would love to see them, it would help when we look at the longevity of the different bushings.
Well according to Blaine Johnson, the guy who designed the Savvy Mid Arm, he says that short arms are fine up to 4", the angle does not affect the ride as much as people say, and you want good shocks. Most people who go long arm also upgrade their shocsk and that is what improves the ride, not the control arms, and you have more of a chance to screw up the ride with a crappy setup long arm. If you NEED longer arms, look at the savvy mid arm kit. I prefer the Girro joints/DDB's over the Johnny Joints but that is personal preference because the JJ's have an excellent reputation.
I just went down to Core 4x4, they are building me a set of TJ short arms that will take the Clayton Girro/Synergy DDB bushings. I am also getting a set of 12" stroke fox 2.0 reservoirs and outboading the rears. The shocks and outboarding will do more than a long arm reduced angle for on and off highway ride. You only change 15 degrees of arm angle with a 3.5-4" lift with short arms. You will also extend the control arms to get your wheel base back to the proper wheelbase if you do it right.
Go over to the Wrangler TJ forum and the Jeep forums and read, some are experts on these modifications if you are running a TJ. Tim
Well according to Blaine Johnson, the guy who designed the Savvy Mid Arm, he says that short arms are fine up to 4", the angle does not affect the ride as much as people say, and you want good shocks. Most people who go long arm also upgrade their shocsk and that is what improves the ride, not the control arms, and you have more of a chance to screw up the ride with a crappy setup long arm. If you NEED longer arms, look at the savvy mid arm kit. I prefer the Girro joints/DDB's over the Johnny Joints but that is personal preference because the JJ's have an excellent reputation.
I just went down to Core 4x4, they are building me a set of TJ short arms that will take the Clayton Girro/Synergy DDB bushings. I am also getting a set of 12" stroke fox 2.0 reservoirs and outboading the rears. The shocks and outboarding will do more than a long arm reduced angle for on and off highway ride. You only change 15 degrees of arm angle with a 3.5-4" lift with short arms. You will also extend the control arms to get your wheel base back to the proper wheelbase if you do it right.
Go over to the Wrangler TJ forum and the Jeep forums and read, some are experts on these modifications if you are running a TJ. Tim
gatchmo5710
Active Member
This is not true. Angle of the arms is everything. Go look at any ride competing in KOH. Their angles are flat. Long arm vs short arm? Who cares!! But correct geometry is everything. It usually is accomplished by longer arms.
Ive ran both a XJ and TJ on short arms with 4-6 inches of lift. Straight swap to long arms, which almost reduce my angles in half!!!! with no other mods done was night and day. I will never run short arms to save a few bucks.
To be fair. This isn't a discussion about long arm vs short arm. This was about quality short arms. I know what long arms could do but unless I go a complete lift kit for a couple grand it isn't going to change enough to justify the upgrade on my current set up. I do appreciate the info provided.
