Political So now what

[jeeper]

I don't think you should fell bad or guilty about what you consider your privilege. The privilege you reference is more of opportunites and a family legacy. I think privilege in the way it is being talked about in todays world has more to do with the way people interact with you based on certain characteristics. There most certainly is a "white privilege" I do think people need to acknowledge it and stop acting like they dont have some sort of privilege over minorities.

My nephew was adopted at birth. He is black and grew up in Utah his whole life...up in Midway. His life was much different from his older brother(biological nephew) my adopted nephew was questioned first whenever something happened at school. He was first to be accused of wrong doing in his group of friends (by law enforcement and school staff) He also had the privilege of being starter on the football team in high school without having played much in little league.

He was my wakeup call to realize that "white privilege" is a thing. My black nephew, raised as closely to his white brother as possible has been treated very differently despite having the same "privilege" that you speak of jeeper. He is a hard working kid and is being given an equal life to his white brother....but he is not treated the same in almost every aspect of daily life. He is pulled over by police way more often. He's been followed in stores A LOT, etc. He starts adult life at a disadvantage just because of how society treats him. He will have to work harder then his brother just to attain the same standard of life.

The privilege we have as white males is real. It's because we don't have the bias, the prejudices against us. More often then not people assume we are not up to anything suspicious or nefarious. Minorities do not have this privilege much of the time. If we can acknowledge it, hopefully we can then work to correct the fact that there is privilege of this kind in the first place.

Thank you. I can see that difference.
I am a fan of guns and gun freedom.. but I would be leery of anyone carrying a gun through the neighborhood, but may be more so of someone not of my color. I will work to 'check' that privilege.

But this goes back to my original issue.. I shouldn't be told to buy from a black owned business over another business. Each business should be judged on their product.
I don't know who owns the businesses I go into. Never have, and never cared.
I exclusively get may fuel and snacks from Maverik, because they advertise to and cater to my hobbies. Ethanol free fuel, RV dumps, and they seem to support the offroad community. The color of skin the owner has doesn't matter.

 

[Unimog]

So I have a cousin who lived in Manhattan for several years. I visited her once while living there and just asked her how safe she felt in her neighborhood. She indicated that it was so-so. She did say that she felt more in danger when a black guy was passing her on the street than a white guy and had a couple of close calls. Does this make her racist? Looking at the stats for NYC for last year, 60% of homocide arrestees were black, 90% were black or hispanic. Less than 4% were white. For the record, I think most of the reasons for stats like this have nothing to do with race and are driven primarily by socio-economic problems. I personally think that most of those socio-economic problems are directly caused by the breakdown of the family. Kind of making the same point as Brian. At the root, it is caused by peoples individual decisions. I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but this is another of those problems that I think the government can mess up more than correct.

 

[Pike2350]

Thank you. I can see that difference.
I am a fan of guns and gun freedom.. but I would be leery of anyone carrying a gun through the neighborhood, but may be more so of someone not of my color. I will work to 'check' that privilege.

But this goes back to my original issue.. I shouldn't be told to buy from a black owned business over another business. Each business should be judged on their product.
I don't know who owns the businesses I go into. Never have, and never cared.
I exclusively get may fuel and snacks from Maverik, because they advertise to and cater to my hobbies. Ethanol free fuel, RV dumps, and they seem to support the offroad community. The color of skin the owner has doesn't matter.

You don't have to buy anything because the product is made by a black owned business however it doesn't hurt you in anyway to be given that information.

Many people wasnt to purchase products from businesses that may support their beliefs or more specifically don't support their beliefs. I know when I go to Moab I try and avoid the business that donate to SUWA or who have been less supportive of the off-road community.

Having more information about a company doesn't hurt. If you don't buy their product so what. Like you said, you buy off the quality of the product regardless of the company....so having information that a product is from a black owned business should have no bearing on you.....and the sMe can be said for a veteran owned business, a woman owned business,etc.

As for the black directors and special sections on Netflix...well it is Black History month...so its not surprising. Again it's just more i formation about the product. If you dont truly care if it's. Lack owned or not it shouldn't bother you one way or the other IMHO.

 

[jeeper]

.....and the same can be said for a veteran owned business, a woman owned business,etc.

At least I am consistent in being bothered.. because these also bother me.


Thanks again for your insights.

 

[Hickey]

At least I am consistent in being bothered.. because these also bother me.


Thanks again for your insights.

I'm the same as you, Brian. It bothers me when someone's race is pointed out to me. You would never see "This ketchup is proudly produced by a Caucasian owned company" but whatever. I'm racist because Houndoc says so.

 

[TRD270]

He is pulled over by police way more often

90% of my traffic stops I had no idea the ethnicity of who I pulled over, hell most of the time I didn't know if it was a male or female. Again i'm sure it happens but to say this is a nationwide problem and all cops do it is a copout. I pulled over vehicles not drivers. If my radar said you were speeding I pulled you over not because you are black but because you were speeding. If your registration is expired I pulled you over for that not because you're hispanic. If its 0300 in the morning and you're coming out of an area known to sell drugs I pulled you over because your license plate light was out not because you were white.

Like I said before. If I'm carrying a weapon on me in obvious site, walking through your neighborhood... What do you think? If a big black dude or a Hispanic dude does the same, do you look at it the same? Do you think cops do? Actually... @TRD270 what would you say. Do you think some police officers react differently to minorities if given the same circumstances? Honest question.

For me when I was at work everyone was a threat until I deemed they weren't. Every scene gets triaged, Threat, possible threat, not a threat. For me anyone at a scene with a weapon is a threat until that weapon isn't a threat to me anymore (by securing it until I left). Skin color doesn't matter the threat is the weapon. I'm sure lots of police react differently to minorities on scenes its programmed in our brain, but lots of police are also minorities so you think they act differently around white people?

 

[UNSTUCK]

Minorities struggle to become entrepreneurs in Utah, report says, and pandemic makes it tougher

For minorities in the Beehive State hoping to become their own bosses and carve out a place in Utah's burgeoning business landscape, the playing field is anything but level, a recent study shows.

www.ksl.com

"Rather than apply for funding through a bank for his new venture, he saved the money on his own.
He said it was the only path he believed there was for him to take, fearing he would be rejected for a loan because he was "Black and foreign.""

I was pretty upset after reading this news story. I made that clear in the comment section (which KSL choose not to include). This story adds fuel to the "problem". For all we know this guy might have gotten a loan. It's unfair to say he probably wouldn't have because of his background. The story then goes on to site stats of black owned businesses, compared to white owned. Just because more white people own businesses doesn't mean there is a race problem. It might just simply mean more white people want to be business owners. There was never a stat given for number of loan applications received vs denied between blacks and whites. I wonder why they did not give that very important information? Perhaps the percentages would be too close and mess with their argument?

Bottom line for me is couple things. There is racism. It's not as bad as it's made out to be. We ALL need to be better and getting rid of it. There is some truth in all stereotypes. For good or bad.

 

[Pike2350]

90% of my traffic stops I had no idea the ethnicity of who I pulled over, hell most of the time I didn't know if it was a male or female. Again i'm sure it happens but to say this is a nationwide problem and all cops do it is a copout. I pulled over vehicles not drivers. If my radar said you were speeding I pulled you over not because you are black but because you were speeding. If your registration is expired I pulled you over for that not because you're hispanic. If its 0300 in the morning and you're coming out of an area known to sell drugs I pulled you over because your license plate light was out not because you were white.


I never said it was all cops....but I do believe it is a nationwide problem.

You can say you were different and you may have well been...but my nephews experience vs mine or his brothers says it happens. I wo.d guess it happens A LOT more then you want to admit. I speed regularly...5-10 over.....i dont think this is uncommon. I have been pulled over a total of 3 times in my life. I've been pulled over for expired registration once. That is it. I am 43 and have lived here my whole life. My nephew is 22, has lived in UT his whole life. He is pulled over on average 5-6 times a year. Since he started driving. To say he isn't targeted is being naive.

There is bias in everyone....and it shows itself in almost every interaction we have with others. If you pull up on a car accident and see a 65yr old man in a business suit and a 23 year old man(not even worried about ethinicity) in a car that is hopped up...I can almost guarantee that your first thought is that the accident was caused by the 23 year old.

It's what we do as human. We take information prestented to us and make split second judgments....to act like skin color/ ethnicity doesn't influence that is just ridiculous. Again this goes back to what we've seen....and what we tend to believe. It's not a pretty truth to acknowledge that we all have some biased based on ethnicity. I simply point out that the bias towards white skin is far less judgemental overall.

 

[Jesser04]

You can say you were different and you may have well been...but my nephews experience vs mine or his brothers says it happens. I wo.d guess it happens A LOT more then you want to admit. I speed regularly...5-10 over.....i dont think this is uncommon. I have been pulled over a total of 3 times in my life. I've been pulled over for expired registration once. That is it. I am 43 and have lived here my whole life. My nephew is 22, has lived in UT his whole life. He is pulled over on average 5-6 times a year. Since he started driving. To say he isn't targeted is being naive.

There is bias in everyone....and it shows itself in almost every interaction we have with others. If you pull up on a car accident and see a 65yr old man in a business suit and a 23 year old man(not even worried about ethinicity) in a car that is hopped up...I can almost guarantee that your first thought is that the accident was caused by the 23 year old.

It's what we do as human. We take information prestented to us and make split second judgments....to act like skin color/ ethnicity doesn't influence that is just ridiculous. Again this goes back to what we've seen....and what we tend to believe. It's not a pretty truth to acknowledge that we all have some biased based on ethnicity. I simply point out that the bias towards white skin is far less judgemental overall.

maybe your nephew is just a shitty/distracted driver that deserves to be pulled over 5-6 times a year. At his age I was and my driving record will show that. Haven’t had a ticket in over 12 years I can only attribute it to nicer vehicles and better driving habits it has nothing to do with my white privilege.

I’m sure @TRD270 can back me up but the odds of getting pulled over in my 1994 dodge kidnapper van are a lot higher than say my wife’s Macan.

 

[Pike2350]

maybe your nephew is just a shitty/distracted driver that deserves to be pulled over 5-6 times a year. At his age I was and my driving record will show that. Haven’t had a ticket in over 12 years I can only attribute it to nicer vehicles and better driving habits it has nothing to do with my white privilege.

I’m sure @TRD270 can back me up but the odds of getting pulled over in my 1994 dodge kidnapper van are a lot higher than say my wife’s Macan.

sure, you could try to argue that.....but I was a shitty distracted driver in my youth as well. How is it that I have been pulled over a total of 4 times in my life, including my youth? Am I just lucky and he unlucky? I highly doubt that.

I have a friend that will acknowledge that he is a very shitty aggressive driver....even more so in his youth. He owned a 78 Camaro in high school, topped out numerous times at 135 (or so he claims that speed) on I-15 during high school. He is fast, oblivious driver and I actually generally refuse to ride with him because I don't trust his driving. He's been pulled over more then me throughout his life, but still less than my nephew even though he's driven for 20 more years. At last tally I believe he told me he had been pulled over 13 times. (only once in the past 5 years I believe) He also has had a higher ticket count then both me and my nephew. I think he said it's been 9 tickets out of the 13 pull overs.

This is another part that gets me. I've received tickets on 2 of my 4 pull overs. Once for the expired registration and once for going 93 in a 75 out in Wyoming back in my college days. My nephew, in all of his pull overs has only received 2 tickets I believe, both for speeding down Parley's. Now, he drives a newish Jetta (2013 I believe) Nothing fancy. it's not hopped up, no rims/tires, no tint, no loud obnoxious stereo(that i've heard anyway) It's just silver Jetta. Nothing about it screams "pull me over"

My point is, to try and act like this doesn't happen is part of the problem.

 

[N-Smooth]

I was pulled over and ticketed a ton, all the way through my 20's and I'm very white.

I appreciate the differing opinions on here. I don't really like the term privilege because it's thrown around so flippantly and supposed to make me feel bad. I will however not deny that other people have experienced life very differently from me. That understanding combined with my general life motto of "don't be a dick" has led to some very fruitful relationships with people of different races, religions and cultures.

I really wish I had the answers and knew what would make everything better but I don't. I agree with @Unimog though, a lot of changes need to start at the family level.

 

[Jesser04]

what you explanation for my experience then? White male with plenty of white privilege I turned 16 in 1999 my first vehicle was a 99 4 door power stroke I got stopped so many times and got so many tickets by the time I was 20 I was driving a 87 Toyota that cost me 600 a month for liability only insurance.

I was a shitty entitled teenager that had to learn the hard you should drive good. I never admitted that to my parents though.

 

[xjtony]

I think that this is good. Sharing our experience in life is probably the best way to deal with inequality because we all come from diffrent backgrounds. I have no doubt that many people still experience racism today, but I also think a lot of people dont see it due to their background.

I spent my childhood in rural Michigan. While there were not a lot of folks of color, due to our very rural lifestyle ( nothing for hours around besides the Airforce base). I dont really remeber any major race issues. As a kid that young I didnt really even know that race was an issue.

After Michigan we moved over seas for 6 years between England and Germany. We were there with the Airforce, so that was kind of our "identity" as a tribe.

I graduated high school and came into adulthood outside of Tampa. Due to where we lived the population was very diverse and I never really noticed any kind of systematic racism. My best friend in high school has 3 kids with mixed ethnicity (due to his support of Trump in 2016 he was viciously attacked as a racist by people who never even took the time to look at anything other than his political affiliation). He was the first person I really knew that left social media due to " cancel culture".

I enlisted in the Airforce when I was 25. I think its important to note that while the polices of the military have not always been overly inclusive, thats not necessarily the way the military as a whole is. The top basic training graduate in my squadron was openly gay (as open as he could be at the time). I went to tech school with a guy whos parents had run from Iran as political refugees. I was lucky enough through my career to be able to work beside a lot of foreign national service members all over the world. I guess my point is that I've been lucky enough to have a life filled with good and plentiful experiences that have shaped my views.

For the first several years of his life my son was the only white kid in his daycare. It never mattered to me because he was taken good care of and he wasnt treated any different. I was lucky living so many places and being associated with a diverse military that race is not really somthing I think much about. I will say that I need to be more open to listening to other people stories because not everyone has been as lucky as I have. I have no doubt that people deal with discrimination every day, but it can be hard for me to see it sometimes because I've never really had too deal with it.

 

[Jesser04]

Can we start a go fund me for your nephew to tint his windows so he doesn’t get profiled anymore. It will either solve his problems or make it 10x worse depending on his vehicle.

 

[TRD270]

sure, you could try to argue that.....but I was a shitty distracted driver in my youth as well. How is it that I have been pulled over a total of 4 times in my life, including my youth? Am I just lucky and he unlucky? I highly doubt that.

I have a friend that will acknowledge that he is a very shitty aggressive driver....even more so in his youth. He owned a 78 Camaro in high school, topped out numerous times at 135 (or so he claims that speed) on I-15 during high school. He is fast, oblivious driver and I actually generally refuse to ride with him because I don't trust his driving. He's been pulled over more then me throughout his life, but still less than my nephew even though he's driven for 20 more years. At last tally I believe he told me he had been pulled over 13 times. (only once in the past 5 years I believe) He also has had a higher ticket count then both me and my nephew. I think he said it's been 9 tickets out of the 13 pull overs.

This is another part that gets me. I've received tickets on 2 of my 4 pull overs. Once for the expired registration and once for going 93 in a 75 out in Wyoming back in my college days. My nephew, in all of his pull overs has only received 2 tickets I believe, both for speeding down Parley's. Now, he drives a newish Jetta (2013 I believe) Nothing fancy. it's not hopped up, no rims/tires, no tint, no loud obnoxious stereo(that i've heard anyway) It's just silver Jetta. Nothing about it screams "pull me over"

Was going to say the same thing as Jesser maybe he’s not a good driver. I remember one young lady in particular where I used to patrol. I didn’t target her, didn’t even realize it until I pulled up her record either. I think I gave her 5 tickets in the span of a year. Which says a lot because I didn’t write many tickets.

Handing out tickets in Parleys is like shooting fish in a barrel troopers love it. Hell I was with the county and in the area all the time I also stopped people in parleys.

My point is, to try and act like this doesn't happen is part of the problem

I would argue this statement perpetuates the perceived problem

 

[Jesser04]

@Pike2350 Just be happy you’re not married to my wife you’d think cops were sexist too. She gets stopped a couple times a year and always gets tickets never warnings. It’s also never her fault...

 

[Hickey]

@Pike2350 Just be happy you’re not married to my wife you’d think cops were sexist too. She gets stopped a couple times a year and always gets tickets never warnings. It’s also never her fault...

😬😬😬

 

[Pike2350]

@TRD270 I only brought up his tickets in Parley's to point out that he's been given tickets for, as you put it pretty easy and common things, but he's been pulled over for various infractions. He's been pulled over for not using a blinker, following too close, not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign, crossing a double yellow line, etc. Not all of these are up in Wasatch County (Midway).....He felt so out of place up there that for his final 2 years of high school he moved in with another sister down her in SLC and attended a more racially diverse school here. Most of his pull overs are down in SL County as far as I've been told.

Regardless. I think acting like this doesn't exist is very naive. To think that race doesn't play a role in how people are perceived and treated, again is disingenious. I will admit that if I was walking by my old condo in South Salt Lake, if I saw group of minorities, I would likely be more guarded and keep my eyes looking around. If I saw a group of white guys, I would still be slightly, but not to the same extent. I can acknowledge this and as much as I try not to think this way, I find it difficult to not have these biases...but acknowledging them is part of the way to get past them IMHO.

 

[Hickey]

I just want to let y'all know that you should never speed in Grantsville. They don't do warnings, and I know plenty of people who've been ticketed for 2 mph over, myself included. They aren't racist cops, they are capitalists.

 

[Pike2350]

@Pike2350 Just be happy you’re not married to my wife you’d think cops were sexist too. She gets stopped a couple times a year and always gets tickets never warnings. It’s also never her fault...

I've learned, as has my nephew that in many cases, how you act and treat a cop will greatly influence your likelyhood of getting a ticket.

My ex was the same way. She liked to ignore the fact that she would often act like a bitch to the cop and ask "what their problem was" and other such endearing phrases.