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Stephen

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
Location
Never Far From Nowhere
Spork said:
Not a fan of what is happening in Afghanistan...
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I have lots of thoughts on this. Most are unpleasant.
From a humanitarian perspective, this is unbelievable. Afghanistan is on the brink of a humanitarian crisis not seen since Rawanda? Perhaps even Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge? The fact that it was a completely avoidable disaster makes it all the more disheartening.
This is also the greatest foreign policy disaster in a generation and will negatively alter the geopolitical balance of power for decades to come. Again, totally avoidable.
No matter your position on US and NATO involvement in Afghanistan, the last month has been a self inflicted catastrophe. I'm ashamed of our government and military leadership.
 
4

4x4_Welder

Well-Known Member
Location
Twin Falls, ID
Stephen said:
I have lots of thoughts on this. Most are unpleasant.
From a humanitarian perspective, this is unbelievable. Afghanistan is on the brink of a humanitarian crisis not seen since Rawanda? Perhaps even Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge? The fact that it was a completely avoidable disaster makes it all the more disheartening.
This is also the greatest foreign policy disaster in a generation and will negatively alter the geopolitical balance of power for decades to come. Again, totally avoidable.
No matter your position on US and NATO involvement in Afghanistan, the last month has been a self inflicted catastrophe. I'm ashamed of our government and military leadership.
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We shouldn't have been there int he first place. All this "war on terror" did was polarize more people against western culture in general.
 
Unimog

Unimog

Eric
Location
Stansbury Park, UT
I do think we should be out of there, but this obviously wasn't the way to withdraw. Talking with a friend who served a tour or two there, he is very angry with the army and men in general there who wouldn't even stand up once we pulled out. It has to be doubly frustrating for anyone who has paid for the last 20 years with their family's blood. My friend is also pretty worried about what this means to the women and children of Afghanistan. There is really no win coming from this area of the world.
 
Stephen

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
Location
Never Far From Nowhere
4x4_Welder said:
We shouldn't have been there int he first place. All this "war on terror" did was polarize more people against western culture in general.
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I mean, Al-Qaeda and their hosts in Afghanistan, the Taliban, weren't really that keen on Western Civilization in September 2001 either and I don't really think that us sitting on our hands post them launching the most deadly terrorist attack in history was really going to win over hearts and minds in the radical Jihadist hukkah bars.
Now was the NATO mission there mishandled, absolutely. Broadly speaking, once NATO had beaten the Taliban and routed Al-Qaeda from the country around 2003, it probably wasn't the wisest thing to embark on a nation building endeavor. How it should have been handled is up for debate, but the concrete fact is that Islamist terrorists haven't brutally killed 3,000 Americans for 20 years. To me, that made our mission there a success. Our withdrawal, and particularly how its has been conducted, has emboldened every Jihadi in the world. The clock has been reset to 09/10/01.

Unimog said:
I do think we should be out of there, but this obviously wasn't the way to withdraw. Talking with a friend who served a tour or two there, he is very angry with the army and men in general there who wouldn't even stand up once we pulled out. It has to be doubly frustrating for anyone who has paid for the last 20 years with their family's blood. My friend is also pretty worried about what this means to the women and children of Afghanistan. There is really no win coming from this area of the world.
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Its staggering to think of the brutality that is about to be visited upon the people of Afghanistan, particularly women. As I said before, I am ashamed of our government and military leaders. They knew what was going to happen if we left in this fashion.
 
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xjtony

xjtony

Well-Known Member
Location
Grantsville, Ut
I spent my entire military career during this war. I have spent years in the middle east, and what most people don't really understand is that this was the predetermined outcome of this war since day one of US boots on Afghan soil. As the occupying force we never stood a chance in a holy war. That being said it doesn't make it any easier to watch it all come down. The Taliban claim to be "new and improved" but they are not. At the end of the day there is only one small region of the country full of people willing to fight for their freedom, we can't fix that. What really pisses me off is how quickly its been turned into political ammo. This will be Biden's legacy because it happened on his watch. His administration was also in power for 8 years of this conflict and never did a thing to try and stop it. The withdrawal was done in accordance with Trumps deal with the Taliban. It would have happened a few months earlier if he had won the election. His attempt to push all the blame onto the current administration is a slap in the face to anyone who served trying to make things better for the people there. While I don't agree with Bush's decision to try and rebuild a country, I can understand the desire to do so.

I've had a very difficult time reconciling what is going on over there right now, as have a lot of vets. We all know someone who sacrificed, in some cases sacrificed everything, to try to make a difference. Now we are down to guys on a personal mission trying to walk Afghanis that helped them sneak around checkpoints and get to safety using satellite imagery or any way they can . We have Marines taking custody of babies at the checkpoints because their mothers are trying to get them to safety. (Marines on active duty are in no way authorized to take custody of children but our government is not standing up to do it so individuals are). I truly feel for the women and children over there because they are going to suffer the worst of it, but I also worry about my brothers and sisters that fought this war over the last 20 years. I feel like we are going to see a serious increase in veteran suicide before this is all over. I don't disagree that we should have been out of Afghanistan a long time ago, but it doesn't make it any easier to watch our failure unfold so quickly.
 
Houndoc

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
jackjoh said:
My problem is I can not find anyone to discuss this without getting bashed for my view. If you were born into a country you should respect the laws and flag until such time they are changed by the constitution and if you move here you know what you are going to do and need to respect the laws and flag or do not come here or move away.
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A lot of important progress (end of slavery, women's suffrage, civil rights movement) only happened because people stood up against what was the laws of the time. Nonviolent protest (and occasional violent protest) has made us a much better nation.

Stephen said:
I have lots of thoughts on this. Most are unpleasant.
From a humanitarian perspective, this is unbelievable. Afghanistan is on the brink of a humanitarian crisis not seen since Rawanda? Perhaps even Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge? The fact that it was a completely avoidable disaster makes it all the more disheartening.
This is also the greatest foreign policy disaster in a generation and will negatively alter the geopolitical balance of power for decades to come. Again, totally avoidable.
No matter your position on US and NATO involvement in Afghanistan, the last month has been a self inflicted catastrophe. I'm ashamed of our government and military leadership.
Click to expand...
The way the withdraw of troops was handled was a disaster, as was the negotiations under Trump between the US and Taliban that left the Afghan government sidelined & out of the process. And yes, we probably made things worse by staying too long- being seen as occupiers in a proudly independent culture sets up for resentment and failure.
 
TRD270

TRD270

Emptying Pockets Again
Supporting Member
Location
SaSaSandy
xjtony said:
Never said Biden's hands were tied because of Trump. I said that the withdrawal was conducted in accordance with Trumps agreement. In fact we never even met some the requirements for the withdrawal.
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Trump may have negotiated the deal, but he also set terms and was very clear he willing to back them with use of force. The taliban know Biden had no intent to back the use of force and probably started formulating this game plan back in November. This administration did an absolute piss poor job of arranging the withdrawal.

Edit: On a side note I feel terrible for the people of Afghanistan. But at the same time I don't. If you don't want to be under taliban rule you need to step up and defend your country. They were given the tools and training to do this, but ultimately in a matter of days they allowed a much smaller force to roll over them. You want big brothers help, you need to put in a little more effort yourself. American men and women (many other countries as well) have made enormous sacrifices on the behalf of the Afghanistan people over the last 20 years. Need to step up and make that sacrifice yourself. Like them or not, the taliban at least are ardent defenders of their cause.

Unfortunately all this is going do is fuel the talibans power against western culture. An entire generation of people know nothing than outside help in that country, now they've been straight up abandoned. Its going to create more extremists both willingly and unwillingly to the taliban cause. Maybe not today maybe not tomorrow, but there will be more attacks against the west from this group.
 
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mbryson

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Location
Bountiful, land of rocks
UT410 said:
Somebody needs to rescue Biden, too. There's no way he's even 75% of who he was when he was VP. Anytime he's spoken to the media during this debacle has been very odd.
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It’s getting time to take a page from the French in 1793, borrow their guillotine for our “representative “ government?
 
jackjoh

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
Herzog said:
www.dailywire.com

New York Times Pushes Six Redesigns Of American Flag | The Daily Wire

www.dailywire.com www.dailywire.com

My guess is the 'redesigns' are more hammer/sickle looking

🤡world
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I am amazed that it is even being considered. I do not understand people that were born into a country that gives them a means of change (the Constitution) and instead of using it when they do not get their way they use riots, popular sites, and the press to force changes. Our schools, press, politicians, and parents have done a terrible job of raising children and running the country.
 
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