The H'ell Camino

[TurboMinivan]

Drums all the way round, the A body cars didn't get front discs until later on. I'm fairly certain it's a 10 Bolt rear.

I was not implying it had factory disc brakes; I just figured if somebody spent all that time and money on a resto, they might have stuffed discs under it while they were there.

Good news: you have plenty of cheap, easy options for front discs. You can modify your existing spindles like my buddy Mike did on his '64 ElCo, or you can bolt on some (very specific) Blazer spindles like I did on my Grand Prix. No need to lay out big bucks.

I thought Mike had put rear discs on his ElCo back when he had the stock rear end, but he just corrected me--that didn't happen until he put a 9" under it (because he blew up two different 10-bolts). I'm still running drums on my 8.8" rear, so I have no personal experience to help you out back.

 

[Greg]

I'm not too happy about where I'm at now, with this car. I paid a fair price for a running and driving '66 El Camino... and it's not that.

I decided to look into the engine oil pressure issue, ordered a Melling High Volume oil pump and oil pan gasket in preparation. I had the engine out on Wednesday and tore it down to see what the bottom end looks like. Some good news? It's a 4 bolt main, but the block, heads and crank are nothing special otherwise. I pulled the oil pump first then took it apart, the pump internals had some obvious galling and a point where it looked the pump gears have been scraping in places that shouldn't touch. After pulling the connecting rod caps, I found some scratches on one journal and 3 bearings that were scratched/beatup. On top of all that, there was signs of water/coolant inside the engine, by way of milky oil clinging to the inside of the valve covers. The engine oil itself looked OK, dirty for sure.... but not what I'd consider alarming. The engine could be put back together, but I'd be worried that the head gasket issue will either get worse or cause bigger problems. I could pull the heads and toss new head gaskets on, but if I'm doing that I also like to swap out the intake and carb for a square bore intake and Holley 3310 carb. But if I'm doing THAT, I should probably have the crank turned, toss new bearings in it and..... well.... do it right. That's a lot of work for an engine that probably makes 280-300 HP and sits in front of a TH350 with no OD.

So now I'm at a crossroads... I have a high-mile GM LM7 5.3 sitting in my shop. It was meant to be a parts engine for the aluminum L33 5.3 block and 241 Corvette heads, but I sold all those parts to @Noahfecks just a few weeks ago. We've been talking and he's OK with my buying back the LM7 and building it for the El Camino. He'll still get the new L33 aluminum block and LS1 heads.

I would upgrade the cam in the LM7 ($550 for cam and springs), drop in a new oil pump and timing chain set and probably swap in a set of 4.8 pistons to bump the compression up to 10 to 1. With a tune, this combo should be good for 400 HP and that would be plenty in the El Camino for me. I would really like to step up to an Overdrive transmission at the same time and really want a 4L80E. I can get a rebuilt one for $1000, but would need a trans controller, too... that's $600. Wiring harness for the LM7 would be around $500, I hear I can run F-Body exhaust manifolds ($50) in this car rather than expensive LS Swap headers ($500), will need an LS Swap oil pan fur sure ($380).

So what is best, at this point? I don't think the seller is going to give me any money back... we're talking, but he's claiming ignorance on the engine issues but it's a complicated situation. He bought he car from family members 2 weeks before I bought it, put a new battery in and bleed the brakes. He's going to try see if they will help refunding some of the money.

The LM7 is going to be pretty complicated to get in and then running.... all the wiring, exhaust changes, electric fans, fuel pump, etc, etc. But it would be fuel injected, reliable and probably even pull down decent MPG's when combined with an OD transmission. The bad thing is that I'm not prepared for an LS swap right now, didn't expect the project and expense right now... I have more than enough going on currently. My shop is a mess, due to this unplanned work.

 

[mbryson]

Oof!!! Just curious about the 4 speed auto vs a 6 speed auto? Why not just run the LS with a “built” 700r4?

I wonder if you could find a decent 350, stab it and run it for a year or two before the LS swap?

$87-95 CHEVY 350 TBI MOTER REBUILT 25K RUNS GREAT$


$87-95 CHEVY 350 TBI MOTER REBUILT 25K RUNS GREAT$ http://www.ksl.com/classifieds/listing/51994314

That’s a TBI but...


This one has issues. Nothing you’d care about and could probably be had on the cheap? "2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LS" on KSL. http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4653239

I2003 Chevrolet Silverado 1500" on KSL. http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4637070


Maybe the trucks would make sense as you can steal some needed parts for you truck and the power train for the Elky?

 

[Tacoma]

Engine's already out. Gaskets and bearings are cheapish. Throw some in, drive and enjoy. Amass parts and knowledge for the LS swap as needed.

 

[TRD270]

What a bummer Greg, I'm sure you'll figure something out maybe diesel 4 banger power

 

[Greg]

Oof!!! Just curious about the 4 speed auto vs a 6 speed auto? Why not just run the LS with a “built” 700r4?

I wonder if you could find a decent 350, stab it and run it for a year or two before the LS swap?

$87-95 CHEVY 350 TBI MOTER REBUILT 25K RUNS GREAT$


$87-95 CHEVY 350 TBI MOTER REBUILT 25K RUNS GREAT$ http://www.ksl.com/classifieds/listing/51994314

That’s a TBI but...


This one has issues. Nothing you’d care about and could probably be had on the cheap? "2002 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 LS" on KSL. http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4653239

I2003 Chevrolet Silverado 1500" on KSL. http://www.ksl.com/auto/listing/4637070


Maybe the trucks would make sense as you can steal some needed parts for you truck and the power train for the Elky?

I don't know that I'd care for a stock 350, this one that came in the car is kinda built up, pretty sure it has an aftermarket cam, with the intake, headers, etc... it's kind of fun to drive, but it's not exciting.

I'm not a huge 700R4 fan.... I'd be fine with a 4L80E. The 6 speed 6L80/90 is interesting, but I don't think the transmissions are cheap yet, nor would the controller be. I really like the idea of the 4L80E.

The last thing I need or have room for is another vehicle around... I think we're up to 7 now?

Engine's already out. Gaskets and bearings are cheapish. Throw some in, drive and enjoy. Amass parts and knowledge for the LS swap as needed.

Yeah, and that's in the back of my mind.... it's probably the cheapest and simplest solution at this point. I just don't want to spend more than $250-300 to get there, because that cuts into the budget for LS parts. I think with the engine and transmission, I would sell those parts (even though the engine needs work) for $500/each. That's $1000 towards LS parts! And I don't like doing work twice.... as you said, the engine's already out... it sure would be nice to drop a LS in place!

What a bummer Greg, I'm sure you'll figure something out maybe diesel 4 banger power

If this car wasn't worth what it was, I'd consider it! Look up NADA value on this thing.... it needs a hot GM V8 under the hood.

 

[Greg]

Engine's already out. Gaskets and bearings are cheapish. Throw some in, drive and enjoy. Amass parts and knowledge for the LS swap as needed.

So here's my updated thoughts... pull the crank, have inspected by a machine shop and turned if needed. New bearings on the bottom end, pull the cam and inspect cam bearings, replace if needed. Step up to Vortec heads, for a little more power. New square bore intake that works with Vortec heads, Holley 3310 carb, new water pump, new oil pump and run the 350 for now. Combined with the aftermarket cam I think it has, the Accel HEI distributor and headers it should be a pretty solid little engine.

I can keep running the TH350 for now and just focus on getting it back on the road with some fixes, minor improvements and make it worth the effort to pull and put back in place.

 

[lhracing]

I need to ask why you are not a 700R4 fan? These can be great transmissions when built correctly and can support 600 or more hp on the street. Drag strip with slicks it depends a lot on the weight of the car. We run one in my son's 69 El Camino and have had good luck on the street but when we raced it on a regular basis we did test the 700R planetary's (which there are better ones now) and thrust washers. His 69 is heavy 3950lbs with a fairly build 496 with a 5200 stall converter on slicks. It has see 11.76 passes at RMR's adjusted altitude of around 7000 feet.

 

[Greg]

I need to ask why you are not a 700R4 fan? These can be great transmissions when built correctly and can support 600 or more hp on the street. Drag strip with slicks it depends a lot on the weight of the car. We run one in my son's 69 El Camino and have had good luck on the street but when we raced it on a regular basis we did test the 700R planetary's (which there are better ones now) and thrust washers. His 69 is heavy 3950lbs with a fairly build 496 with a 5200 stall converter on slicks. It has see 11.76 passes at RMR's adjusted altitude of around 7000 feet.

My biggest dislike is the how easy it is to screw up the TV cable adjustment and burn up the transmission. I realize that they can be built up to handle a lot of abuse, but IMO any decent GM transmission can with enough money. I also don't like the big ratio gap between 1st and 2nd, seems like it's too wide. I will admit that I haven't had the best of luck with GM auto's in my past... I would prefer a 4L80e for ultimate beef and an adjustable, standalone controller so I can adjust the trans as needed.

 

[lhracing]

The 4l80e is a nice transmission but quite a bit more money for a trans and controller. The 1-2 on the 700R is a big gap but around town the low 1st is kind of fun. With your foot in it and a little bit of converter the 1-2 isn't too bad (IMO). Keep us posted on your progress I love the El Caminos.

 

[Greg]

The 4l80e is a nice transmission but quite a bit more money for a trans and controller. The 1-2 on the 700R is a big gap but around town the low 1st is kind of fun. With your foot in it and a little bit of converter the 1-2 isn't too bad (IMO). Keep us posted on your progress I love the El Caminos.

Yeah, I agree.... it's more $$$. I do think it'll be a better option in the long run. You do have a good point about a higher stall and the 1-2 shift.

I'll be sure to keep this thread updated, it's fun to share. I know there are a lot of old school muscle car guys on here that are into this.

 

[Greg]

So I pulled apart the 350 even further and it's not looking good. The pistons look like they're stamped .040 over, the camshaft has a couple flat lobes and one of the bores is pretty scarred up, the distributor drive gear has some funky, uneven wear, the passenger side cyl. head popped with a LOT of force when removing the last head bolts and the head gasket does look like it was blown. I'm worried that with the .040 over bore and lifter bore wear this block is shot. I think the passenger side cyl. head is warped, with the way that it popped when unbolted. It does have a gear drive, as I thought.

I may be going for the LS at this point, as this block may not be rebuildable.

 

[Tacoma]

That block is done for.

I share your distaste for the 700r4, though in my case I broke stuff internally, multiple times, on quality rebuilds AND stock stuff. Not impressed. All of my 4L80s, on the other hand, have taken the same abuse with no issue, and I'm going to be doing a full-manual build for the Blazer if no one buys it. Still looking into a build that doesn't just use max line pressure all the time, but so far no completely satisfactory solution has appeared. Looking into what inputs the 4L80 uses to determine line pressure, but it's an obscure pursuit when everyone uses a controller.

Good news is that there seem to be a bunch of 350s for sale at the moment. or you can bite the bullet and jump in now. IF IT WERE ME, I'd be keen to use a full drivetrain out of like, a Tahoe or something, keep it stock and just drive the wheels off it. Even that is a couple grand all in, not awful, but it's actual money.

 

[SAMI]

Looks like you bought yourself a tar baby.

 

[Greg]

That block is done for.

I share your distaste for the 700r4, though in my case I broke stuff internally, multiple times, on quality rebuilds AND stock stuff. Not impressed. All of my 4L80s, on the other hand, have taken the same abuse with no issue, and I'm going to be doing a full-manual build for the Blazer if no one buys it. Still looking into a build that doesn't just use max line pressure all the time, but so far no completely satisfactory solution has appeared. Looking into what inputs the 4L80 uses to determine line pressure, but it's an obscure pursuit when everyone uses a controller.

Good news is that there seem to be a bunch of 350s for sale at the moment. or you can bite the bullet and jump in now. IF IT WERE ME, I'd be keen to use a full drivetrain out of like, a Tahoe or something, keep it stock and just drive the wheels off it. Even that is a couple grand all in, not awful, but it's actual money.

Agreed, it's more then likely shot. It would have been nice to put it back together with fresh bearings and gaskets, get it back on the road with the 350 and call it good for now, but that's no longer an option. Rather than mess with yet another questionable 350, spend money on gathering parts for it, machine work, etc, I'll just move forward. I can part it out and make a few hundred on some of the good pieces and that'll help buy LS parts.

I'll run the LM7 5.3 that I have, I could drop an oil pump in it and it would be good to go.... but I really want a aftermarket cam and higher compression pistons, in the form of 4.8 parts. Those parts combined with a tune will make for a wicked-fun little engine.

Regarding the transmission, and since I didn't mention it in the last update... I'm going to put the 5.3 in with the current TH350. It'll get me by and be plenty driveable, save me the effort and money on upgrading to an OD trans right away (one spendy thing at a time) and its easy to get working with the 5.3. On top of that, the 5.3 isn't scared of high RPM's.... sure the mileage won't be great, but it should do pretty good even without an OD for now. I have no idea what gears are in the rear end, but will get to that soon enough.

Looks like you bought yourself a tar baby.

Eh, the car is worth way more than I paid so I'm not worried about it. Plus, they're stupid-simple to work on, I know GM muscle cars very well and honestly enjoy doing this kind of stuff. Yeah, the engine swap right off the bat isn't what I had in mind when I bought it, but it'll turn out just fine in the end.

 

[rholbrook]

You could always find a good used 5.7, stroke it, add some vortec heads, stand alone FI and electronic ignition. I do however like the LS idea more. I would make it run good(sleeper), leave the exterior and interior alone, swap out the drum brakes, put big ass sway bars on it, 18" rims in the front and 19" in the rear and drive the hell out of it.

 

[TurboMinivan]

I ... really want a 4L80E. I can get a rebuilt one for $1000, but would need a trans controller, too... that's $600.

It's no secret I am a big fan of the 4L80E in my Grand Prix. I'm just running the stone stock one from my 190,000 mile donor box van. If you're on a budget, just hit up the wrecking yards and grab one off a (2WD) box van for a couple hundred bucks (or less). Pick N Pull on 33rd always has multiple 4L80E vans in stock every time I walk through that section; I expect you could find something closer to your location as well.

Yes, the controller will set you back $600 (or more, depending which one you select). I love the TCI EZ-TCU that I am using. It offers out-of-the-box plug-and-play simplicity, yet you can go in and make adjustments to your heart's content. It is also very expandable, offering support for paddle shifters and numerous other features I am not using... at least not yet.

Note: my buddy Mike spent the same amount on a PCS Simple Shift controller. Compared to my EZ-TCU, however, he hates it. He bought his before I bought mine, and he quickly told me not to get the one he chose... which was part of the reason I chose TCI. Now that he has seen mine in action, he wishes he had purchased one for himself. $.02

 

[Greg]

You could always find a good used 5.7, stroke it, add some vortec heads, stand alone FI and electronic ignition. I do however like the LS idea more. I would make it run good(sleeper), leave the exterior and interior alone, swap out the drum brakes, put big ass sway bars on it, 18" rims in the front and 19" in the rear and drive the hell out of it.

For the cost of building a old SBC (good aluminum heads, roller cam, etc), the LS-based engine just makes more sense... because you get all those 'upgrades' for free! And I have LS & truck-LS parts already, so I'll put them to use!

I'm with you on the sleeper, with the right suspension & wheel/tire upgrades. I'll run the body and interior, upgrade the drivetrain, suspension, brakes, etc and it'll be a hella fun car to drive.

 

[Greg]

It's no secret I am a big fan of the 4L80E in my Grand Prix. I'm just running the stone stock one from my 190,000 mile donor box van. If you're on a budget, just hit up the wrecking yards and grab one off a (2WD) box van for a couple hundred bucks (or less). Pick N Pull on 33rd always has multiple 4L80E vans in stock every time I walk through that section; I expect you could find something closer to your location as well.

Yes, the controller will set you back $600 (or more, depending which one you select). I love the TCI EZ-TCU that I am using. It offers out-of-the-box plug-and-play simplicity, yet you can go in and make adjustments to your heart's content. It is also very expandable, offering support for paddle shifters and numerous other features I am not using... at least not yet.

Note: my buddy Mike spent the same amount on a PCS Simple Shift controller. Compared to my EZ-TCU, however, he hates it. He bought his before I bought mine, and he quickly told me not to get the one he chose... which was part of the reason I chose TCI. Now that he has seen mine in action, he wishes he had purchased one for himself. $.02

That was my plan, hit a wrecking yard and try pick up a good used, lower-mile 4L80E from a van or 2WD 3/4 ton truck. Spend the big bucks on the controller and if the used 4L80E ever went bad, get a rebuilt one and use the JY trans as a core.

I have a bad taste in my mouth from TCI, my personal experience from years ago and a very spendy convertor that they wouldn't warranty, when they should have. Personally, I won't ever buy another TCI part. I plan to run the Quick 2 or 4 from US Shift. - http://www.usshift.com/usq2.shtml

 

[anderson750]

Just sell it to me. I’ll be driving through Junction on Friday and will get this nightmare out of your mind.