TRUMP: Whats the real deal?

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Noahfecks

El Destructo!
Wage controls, they don't work

For starters, a portion of the working poor are always displaced when wages go up. This means a portion of those you are trying to help go from having a wage, to not having any wage at all. Go tell that guy how you helped him.

Wage inflation, while you may have given the worker a few more bucks in his paycheck, he is actually worse off because the cost of goods raises by more than his pay increase, effectively making him poorer.

Lets say Joe makes $10/hr, and the .gov decides it's going to raise his wage by 10%, he now makes $11/hr because he was lucky enough not to be replaced by a machine that doesn't miss the day after the Superbowl because it's hung over. Joe is a useful idiot so he is psyched because he has more dollars in his pocket. People who make stuff don't do it out of the kindness of their hearts, they expect a return on investment, they have a target number in mind that makes it worth the missed opportunity cost of doing something else. We call it profit margin, lets assume a flat 10% (this is actually a very thin margin, if you don't make 10% you should close your doors and go do something else). The manufacturer of Joe's beer experiences a 10% increase in his labor cost because the .gov mandated that Joe get a raise. The old price of Joe's beer was COGSx1.10%. The manufacturer isn't going to accept a smaller profit margin, after all it's a publicly traded company and the shareholders, people who have retirement accounts invested in mutual funds, demand a constant dividend. The new price of Joe's beer is (COGS+10% labor increase)x1.10%, meaning that Joe got a 10% wage increase but everything he wants to buy went up 11% in price. But Joe is a useful idiot so he will continue to vote for democrats because they keep promising to put more dollars that have less buying power in his pocket. Poor Joe, he should have paid attention in math class.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
We need to shake the system up. If we stop the flow of cheap labor, it will hurt the economy. The parents of the 20 somethings that won't do manual labor will be hurt enough that they can't support their adult children anymore. Those adult children will be required to work. Hungry people change their expectations.

I work in a high tech industry, we have baby blue collar jobs. We can't hire Electronics Techs, not exactly manual labor, for $25 an hour to start, with full benefits. The kids that graduated electronics programs at UVU in May can't answer anything past ohm's law. It's dumbfounding. They just paid, or borrowed, $2700 a semester for 5 semesters and learned nothing.

I cannot fault anyone for crossing the border illegally for a better life. What I can fault them for is milking the system and lieing. My wife works for ORS collecting child support for the state. She has quite a few cases of illegals with US citizen kids on every program available who lie about the father's location to ensure he isn't sought for child support. Maybe that is because companies are paying the illegal father substandard wages, it's a real possibility. Fixing that seems like a humane thing to do.
 

johngottfredson

Threat Level Midnight
Location
Alpine
In this economy, anybody who actually employs people knows that substandard wages for illegals is a hilarious political meme. I had some vatos who used to come do side landscape projects for me on weekends. Totally illegal, cash under the table. They won't work for less than $20/hr cash, because they can earn that all day. Massive labor shortages make it pretty great to be illegal these days.

Which just is a greater indictment of the slacker millennial class of weaklings which would rather make less money working at the Verizon store than do something, you know, hard.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wyoming
Which just is a greater indictment of the slacker millennial class of weaklings which would rather make less money working at the Verizon store than do something, you know, hard.

No, most of them end up being pissed off marxist baristas because their arts degree wasn't good for one of those cool engineering jobs at a cool tech company. I can't tell you how many of these I've interviewed...
 

skippy

Pretend Fabricator
Location
Tooele
No, most of them end up being pissed off marxist baristas because their arts degree wasn't good for one of those cool engineering jobs at a cool tech company. I can't tell you how many of these I've interviewed...

Whats wrong with being a barista? : As I slowly untie my apron and step away from the expresso machine :
 

N-Smooth

Smooth Gang Founding Member
Location
UT
I feel like this should be moved to PMs, cause things are about to get graphic

oooh


For real though I think Trump is a media disaster and I find myself questioning "Did he really just say/do that?" but I try to look at the bright side- people just need to stop being offended by everything. I just heard that the "kiss the girl" song from the little mermaid has been deemed misogynistic and I just can't deal with such nonsense.
 

Cody

Random Quote Generator
Supporting Member
Location
East Stabbington
The funny thing is, everybody who is for illegal immigration are the ones who think that they are only useful for cheap labor. And "we're" the "racists"? :rofl:

I guess I don't see where anyone called anyone else racist, and I honestly don't follow the bouncing ball on how what you're saying is racist..at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be racist saying they are taking those or relegated to those jobs because they are Mexican? Whoever said that (which I don't see)...they would be racists. However, I think what is being implied is that because they are coming from a situation in their home country that lacks the opportunity to better themselves through education or access to skill training, they don't have the skills to perform the higher paying jobs but are willing to work the manual jobs if it gives them a chance to better their lives. That's not racist, that's just reality. If a doctor or engineer from Mexico chose to immigrate here, he would probably be in a better position to wait out the lengthy legal process and could come over and compete for those higher paying jobs. This does happen. If a doctor chose to jump the fence and come over here illegally, he/she certainly isn't going to be able to practice legally here. I don't know that this happens...does it? If a doctor is in such a bad situation that he's willing to risk everything he's put into his trade to illegally come across the border, and accepts swinging a hammer in the US is better than being a dr in Mexico, then so be it. But that's not racist.
 

johngottfredson

Threat Level Midnight
Location
Alpine
I do hate Trump, I'm so extremely disappointed that he's my president. I mean, come on. Just depressing on so many levels.

Every time the guy says or does, well, anything, I cringe and vow to vote for some alternative.

Then, I see flash liberal mobs...er.... protests in the streets/capital buildings/campuses/restaurants, and listen to anything Elizabeth Warren, et al, says....and figure the A-hole who at least does SOME good things from a policy and action perspective, is probably better than having other a-holes that perhaps present less offensively, but scew the country with commie policies and rhetoric, throwing fertilizer on the weedpatch of Bernie followers.

I just hate, hate, HATE that those are my two options. Screw the failed political leadership that brought us to this sorry state.
 
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Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
I will take the position that for the nation as a whole things are worse.

The real damage done by Trump is based much more on moral values, tone and civility. The Republican party used to stand for basic moral virtues as fidelity in marriage, honesty and rule of law. All that is gone.
I would rather have an honest president with whom I disagree on policy than a completely untrustworthy president that agree with on some of the issues.

And we can debate all we want (and I won't) whether or not Trump or his policies are racist, but I have seen without question and increased social acceptance to racist and biased views, often from people I would never have suspected of holding such feelings. For someone in a mixed-race family and with lots of immigrant connections it is very disheartening.

Hate is not easily reveresed with an election.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
On the topic of "the wall" and immigration, the Trump/Republican approach is completely wrong.

The real solution to illegal immigration is to make legal immigration a realistic option.

I hear a lot of people claim they have nothing against immigration from Mexico or Central America if they would 'come here legally' then they support the presidents "reform" that even further limits legal immigration. You can't have it both ways.

Most who come here illegally do so because they have no legal options. Our system is a complete mess, period.

We need reform that allows people who want to immigrate to do so legally- yes they need back ground checks to control who is entering and for those who currently can immigrate the laws do require them to have resources to support themselves. That should continue. But the extreme restrictions on numbers of immigrants (the current lottery system as an example) and the new laws putting more emphasis on high-tech skills don't address human need or our economic needs.
 

johngottfredson

Threat Level Midnight
Location
Alpine
I agree that while we are better off in some economic and policy ways under Trump, the national Civic culture has gone down even more. Long term, Trump has done more harm to conservatism than he will have ever helped.

The biggest voting generation is the upcoming millennials. Bigger than baby boomers. Too many of them will equate conservatism with trumpism, for the next 20 years. He's the anthithesis of Reagan, who inspired generations of conservative converts by appealing to lofty ideals. Trump appeals to people's fears and anxieties and base instincts of meanness and tribalism.

I'm upset with Trump not so much for the harm that's being felt now, but the unseen damage that will be felt for many, many years.

And what's perhaps more depressing, is that Trump is just an expression of what so many professed conservatives actually feel and think. Turns out, the Republican party wasn't all that based on principle, unless the principle was win at any price.

My problem is not the result of the general election - Trump vs Hillary = Americans lose. But rather how he got to that point, and once he did, how republicans just fell in line across the board. Political expediency for the MFW.
 

Pike2350

Registered User
Location
Salt Lake City
And what's perhaps more depressing, is that Trump is just an expression of what so many professed conservatives actually feel and think. Turns out, the Republican party wasn't all that based on principle, unless the principle was win at any price..

This is the problem with both parties. They claim to have principles..agree with either side or not, they act like they have them...yet both sides spit on those principles for their own gains.

Many conservatives like to believe Republicans are fiscally conservative.... ...but they aren't....AT ALL. They just spend more on different things while trying to spend less on others. Dems are just the young to that yang. It's ridicoulous that anyone believes cutting spending on entitlements alone and giving tax breaks will fix our debt....or that increasing taxes on the "wealthy" and cutting spending in defense will do it. Everyone needs to face the harsh reality that we need to cut spending across the board, raise taxes, across the board id we are going to survive as a viable nation.

I haven't seen any politician talk about the realities.... instead tl they ignite fear and hatred among the populace based on class or race, or any other number of things people look to. It's a disgrace....Trump is just the most vocal about ut
 

Noahfecks

El Destructo!
On the topic of "the wall" and immigration, the Trump/Republican approach is completely wrong.

The real solution to illegal immigration is to make legal immigration a realistic option.

I hear a lot of people claim they have nothing against immigration from Mexico or Central America if they would 'come here legally' then they support the presidents "reform" that even further limits legal immigration. You can't have it both ways.

Most who come here illegally do so because they have no legal options. Our system is a complete mess, period.

We need reform that allows people who want to immigrate to do so legally- yes they need back ground checks to control who is entering and for those who currently can immigrate the laws do require them to have resources to support themselves. That should continue. But the extreme restrictions on numbers of immigrants (the current lottery system as an example) and the new laws putting more emphasis on high-tech skills don't address human need or our economic needs.

Serious question asking in the most respectful way to understand your perspective, how many are we supposed to let in to make "legal immigration a realistic option"? We allow more than a million legal immigrants into this country every year or do I misunderstand your point?

Yes the current system is geared towards those with desirable skills, not sure that I see how that is a bad thing.

I am in favor of more strict immigration until we can get the situation under control, so much so that I would put a 5 year moratorium on all immigration to figure out how to deal with what's already gone down and how to control it going forward.

I know many immigrants both legal and illegal and with rare exception I think most of them are generally good people. Being a good person doesn't make you exempt from the rule of law.
 

UT410

Member
Supporting Member
TLDR: It's not as simple as the talking heads make it. They just want to excite your amygdala because they can manipulate you that way.

My wife is an immigration lawyer and while she's the absolute pro, I've been around the conversation long enough to know some things. First thing, immigration is a hot button word that most people don't understand the full scope of. But the marketing machine is so pervasive and powerful that people hear the word and it makes their blood boil. When your blood is boiling, they got you captive.

When I hear the conversations that trickle down from all the talking heads, I wonder what people would think if they included more realistic information (the stuff that paints a larger picture)?

A moratorium would never work, not in any positive capacity anyway. Nor in any MAGA way, either. It'd send a ripple through our country affecting the economy from the highest technologies, our military, science, doctors/surgeons/academia/research, the million dollar investors in building projects, and all the way down to the stuff we talk about like "the jobs nobody wants to do" like hospitality, farming labor, construction labor, etc., etc., etc., and let's not forget the millions that come through tourism. Hell, millions come just to tour Utah.

We would lose a significant portion of the entertainment industry. Sure, it'd be great to deport Bieber but we'd have to watch Gal Gadot leave, too. Many would scoff at that but it would be a noticeable void for the masses that ride the couch, glued to the TV. You want to upset a nation, mess with their favorite shows. No joke.

Probably half the kids in my daughter's preschool class have immigrant parents. They're doctors, engineers, research scientists, trauma plastic surgeons, and so on. I've spoken with a few folks a time or two and I feel pretty insignificant. These people are making our world a lot better than I am.

Anyway, I digress. Let's just say things are a mess. I think they've always been a mess. My grandmother would tell me stories about her difficulties and that was in the 20s. Had it not been for Laguardia, who was just a young man working at Ellis at the time, she and half of her family would've been put on the next boat to return to Italy because their records had been destroyed in a building fire while they were en-route. And guess where she waited? A cage made of chicken wire held her and her family (other families were held in their own cages) until the boat came or the problem was "solved." Sound familiar?

I spoke with a husband and wife at a networking event, tonight, that have had their immigration case in process since 2003!

Amazon has sorted out the technology that allows for over 600 transactions per second but we have cases where people have to wait 20 years until they can have an interview and start their immigration process. That's not an exaggeration. There are people waiting for their 20-year mark to pass to apply and then go through the process and however long that takes, additionally. There's not even an attempt to make it more efficient. Some will say that it's even by design. If it's true for other govt. agency wait times, it's not a stretch that it could be true in this case, too.

The good that comes from the Trump era is that the whole ball of yarn is slowly being pulled out there. He's not ducking and glossing over the topic or better said "politicking". While only bits and pieces are discussed by us commoners, the information is more plainly visible than ever.

I'd love for DT to have this light-bulb moment where he sees the potential revenue from getting the problem areas in line with becoming legitimate tax contributors. A large demographic would flip from con to pro if they saw the benfits of "paying their share." I truly believe if we treated the laborers like the upper echelon, we'd be better for it. That's coming from a man whose worn both blue and white collars. If we cannot do it to people who are claimed by the country by documentation we're not likely to do it to those who aren't.
 
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