Anyone Reading about The Cap & Trade?

my4thjeep

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Lehi
Here is an abridged version that makes me question its legitimacy.
I think if it passes we will have some serious economic problems not too mention be 4 wheeling in an electric car that doesn't have enough power to power 4 wheel drive or in Green Speak a thinly veiled attempt to keep Rednecked outdoors men from their primary means to the outdoors.

http://bit.ly/10fwCx

Its interesting take a read. I enjoyed immensely the fact that no one in the House read the bill. Ok Why do we pay these people?
 

Cody

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Whatever happened to that electric buggy they built a couple years ago?

personally, if they could find efficient ways to power electric motors, that would be bitchin. I would love to have a vehicle with loads of torque at every rpm, and have it be totally silent!

How killer would that be to be out in the middle of nowhere on a trail, and you were enjoying the trail as well as the quiet at the same time?
 

my4thjeep

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Lehi
That would be cool but the technology. We are a ways away to be where fossil fuel car technology car allows us now. IE: battery consumption, recharging facilities, etc. Can you imagine a 12 hour fuel stop at the Lehi Crossroads to and from a trip to 5 mile pass?
 

Cody

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Ya, but the technology is way further than that, it has just been pushed aside by other (private) interests. (search the oracle for "who killed the electric car" and/or EV1)

There are multiple ways for power regeneration, from harnessing the energy from braking like hybrids do today, to solar panels, to harnessing the wind as it passes by etc etc. I think it's good to explore new power supplies looking for better, cleaner, more renewable resources. Electric technology to bring cars to 80+ mph with 300+ mile range is coming quickly, but you're right in that the infrastructure to support it is lightyears behind.

I think big oil companies have an unfortunate impact because the development of potentially superior technology would cost them billions of dollars, so of course they are trying to steer the course by throwing around their HUGE lobby....

I absolutely don't take the side of the green organizations, but what do you think would happen if ATV's had quiet electric motors? For one, it would eliminate one of the major gripes used by SUWA to close down trails. I realize transitioning away from coal and petroleum based power would cost some big american companies billions, but the jobs would eventually transition over, and just imagine how nice it would be to wake up in the winter to no nasty smog inversion? Or to go to Dead Horse Point and not have your view limited by haze?
 

Kiel

Formerly WJ ZUK
It was Tony K's old buggy. I heard Seth from RL actually bought all the old stuff from it like the motors etc. I'm sure he is driving areound in a electric buggy right now:rofl:
 

my4thjeep

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I think big oil companies have an unfortunate impact because the development of potentially superior technology would cost them billions of dollars, so of course they are trying to steer the course by throwing around their HUGE lobby....

I happen to know a high ranking executive for a large oil company as well as an Engineer from another. Both have told me that their companies have huge investments in alternative energies. They realized in the 1970's that oil might not always be around. I personally think that the "green" movement likes to hype up the big oil doesn't want us to stop using oil argument a little more. Some where in between lies the truth.

I absolutely don't take the side of the green organizations, but what do you think would happen if ATV's had quiet electric motors? For one, it would eliminate one of the major gripes used by SUWA to close down trails. I realize transitioning away from coal and petroleum based power would cost some big american companies billions, but the jobs would eventually transition over, and just imagine how nice it would be to wake up in the winter to no nasty smog inversion? Or to go to Dead Horse Point and not have your view limited by haze?

As far as electric atvs, I think you would still have the "wanton destruction of riparian habitat" to deal with. And on a side note I have a two atvs, one is a sport and makes plenty of noise the other a lot more quiet and subdued. I have seen more wildlife up close with the sport atv than while riding the quieter. In the last week or so I have ridden within feet of moose, elk, deer, mountain goat and an eagle most of these being in AF Canyon. All these animals I have seen up close (within yards) on the trail.

Inversion/Smog... What about the coal plants that will be needed to power the electric vehicles? Solar and wind are 50-100 years behind producing the massive amounts of power on a usable scale that coal or nuclear power produce. The scare tactics of the nuclear protesters since WWII has made nuclear power an albatross in america.

Economics play a huge role in this. The government has failed to make many good decisions in the last 20 years, and I fail to believe that they will make the right choice when forcing the will of Al Gore on America. As an example look to CA and their inability to sustain government mandates.

I am not anti green but we have to be able to make a living also. Killing our economy to be green when our opponents fail to do green and steal our industry and jobs is completely assinine. The free market will create the path to the next energy technology with or without the governments help.
 

Cody

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As far as electric atvs, I think you would still have the "wanton destruction of riparian habitat" to deal with. And on a side note I have a two atvs, one is a sport and makes plenty of noise the other a lot more quiet and subdued. I have seen more wildlife up close with the sport atv than while riding the quieter. In the last week or so I have ridden within feet of moose, elk, deer, mountain goat and an eagle most of these being in AF Canyon. All these animals I have seen up close (within yards) on the trail.

So, if I'm reading this right, you are trying to imply that the louder ATV you ride somehow attracts wildlife--or at the very least scares no more away than the quieter one? lol, I think you have insufficient information to make that conclusion, but your first hand experience is worth while. I think it's more luck than anything, and regardless, very few people would rather have the louder machine (or be around the louder machine) when enjoying the outdoors. If being around loud obnoxious things is your speed, I have a printing press you can stick your head in just for kicks ;)

The free market will create the path to the next energy technology with or without the governments help.

This I agree with, but there is no sense in waiting until it's a survival strategy. Explore alternative energies now, get the head start on the frame work, and in 10-20-50-100-200 years when we have converted to cleaner sources of energy, we'll be X amount of years ahead of the other economies that we are not being proactive about it, then we can sell it to them ;)

The USA is a gigantic business, and for any business to continue to be successful over a long period of time it has to be able to stay ahead of the curve and part of that might be making tough choices now that we will benefit from later. Sure, jobs might be lost in one industry, but eventually created in another. If you have a job that is in a field that the government is aggressively looking to become less dependent upon, then maybe look into developing another skill set or finding another field to work in prior to it being too late. That's just common sense IMO.

Whether or not I agree with Gore (which I 90% do not--I think he's an great alarmist, a passable politician (for what that’s worth), and a terrible scientist), I can’t be against the development of cleaner technologies just because I'm afraid of change and I think someone somewhere is pushing their own private agenda upon us. No matter what it is, a private agenda is in play and the 'concept' of cleaner energies is something that is at least worth exploring. Like you said, the big oil companies will have their hand in it and try to get their piece of the pie, and that’s fine. They have lots of private money, and are probably really good at taking government money, to put into developing these technologies.

for the record, I haven't had time to even click your link, so I'm not really arguing directly with you or your point, but more from a devil's advocate position.
 
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my4thjeep

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Lehi
So, if I'm reading this right, you are trying to imply that the louder ATV you ride somehow attracts wildlife--or at the very least scares no more away than the quieter one? lol, I think you have insufficient information to make that conclusion, but your first hand experience is worth while. I think it's more luck than anything, and regardless, very few people would rather have the louder machine (or be around the louder machine) when enjoying the outdoors. If being around loud obnoxious things is your speed, I have a printing press you can stick your head in just for kicks ;)

No No No.. It was an interesting side note. I don't believe louder attracted but I was surprised that it didn't seem to bother them as much as I would have expected. Its similar to the herds of deer that live along the I-15 route through SLCO. I work for 911 and we get constant reports of deer grazing along the freeway in Sandy.

I have seen nothing that the Government does better than the private sector therefore it concerns me when they try and force a controversial issues with incomplete science. We need more information.

I think that the government should sponsor alternative fuels through tax incentives not tax penalties, public and private investments (find ways to encourage investment like no capital gains tax on solar power company investments), more endowments and grants to universities and companies to do more R & D. Greed motivates more people in more powerful ways than any other form of motivation. Harness greed for good.

My link was more about the silly special interests and pork in the bill "trying" to clean up the environment. The really only thing that everyone agrees on pro and con is that the cost of energy is going up.
 
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Cody

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No No No.. It was an interesting side note. I don't believe louder attracted but I was surprised that it didn't seem to bother them as much as I would have expected. Its similar to the herds of deer that live along the I-15 route through SLCO. I work for 911 and we get constant reports of deer grazing along the freeway in Sandy.

I think to a great extent wildlife is getting more and more comfortable around us, but not all of it. But the further off the beaten path you get, the less you probably see this. We were out by Horshoe Canyon last fall watching the sunset and listening to the Presidential Debates, and some deer came grazing through our camp within yards of us. They didn't seem to care we were there, but then again if we had made any sudden movements or started up a motor, I'm sure they would have bolted. So I agree with you that not all wildlife is going to run from any human or unnatural noises, there are still plenty that are and I would still choose quiet over loud if the option is available.

I have seen nothing that the Government does better than the private sector therefore it concerns me when they try and force a controversial issues with incomplete science. We need more information.

That's a great link and if you look around, there are TONS of people who think global warming is pure alarmism or, at the very least, routed on isufficient information to make any conclusions about our impact. I think we need to be more mindful of the stuff we put into the environment, but I don't think a couple decades of gradual warming is cause for an international red alert about global climate change. Our climate has been changine since the beginning of time and this is hardly the most dramatic or rapid change that we have record of.
 
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