CNG v. LPG

[StrobeNGH]

It's time to save the earth.

I've been so busy setting criminals free that I need to do something to clear my conscience.

So, like all good people w/ WASP guilt, I'm saving the environment, instead of doing something with real, tangible, meaningful results . . .

I start with my vehicle. I'd like to have bi-fuel capacity, with gasoline being the first choice (must keep myself grounded). The second choice is what's got me scratching my head.

Engine has a carb on it, if that makes a difference.

I know that LPG conversions are generally cheaper (especially the tanks), but LPG is also selling for more than twice what CNG is selling for.

I read on here that LPG provides more lubricants to the engine, but I don't know much more about that . . .

Anyone care to school me on the differences (pros and cons) between the two?

Thanks

 

[Greg]

Is it a 4x4, perhaps a certain Scout? If so.... swap in a Cummins 4BT... :greg: You can burn pump diesel when needed or brew your own bio-diesel for much less $$. I would love to build something with a 4BT, they make more torque than most V8's, get 20-25 MPG in a fullsize, are simple and run 300k+ miles.

It's not propane or CNG, so I apologize for taking this the wrong direction. You could supplement the diesel with propane, but then you're paying to burn the 'pane too.

 

[spencurai]

holy crap...I want to hear what info can be had on this subject as I would like to do the same thing on my Cadillac.

 

[StrobeNGH]

holy crap...I want to hear what info can be had on this subject as I would like to do the same thing on my Cadillac.

More info on what, saving the earth?

There are a LOT of people at my work who drive CNG cars, and they all love them, but there are no LPG people.
The problem is that they all purchased their cars from others and know nothing of the process.

Technically, CNG is a cleaner burning fuel (satisfying the closet liberal in us all), but it is only slightly cleaner than LPG.
I hear that this also does wonders for oil changes.


And yes, this is for the Scout.

The engine swap is a pretty good idea though.
Know anyone who wants to help with it?
:greg:

 

[RockMonkey]

CNG is a pretty cool way to fuel you vehicle. It is cleaner than gasoline, you'll be putting less crap in the air. It's very similar to gasoline in terms of miles per gallon, but since CNG costs roughly 50% of gasoline, the $ per mile is significantly less, after you recoup your conversion costs (which you may never do). One of the really cool things about CNG is that you can refill it from home, since your house if already plumbed for natural gas. You can't do this with propane. In addition to decreased emissions and cost per mile, you will cut your usage of foreign oil to nearly nothing, which is probably the biggest benefit. I'm glad people are looking at options like this. Keep us updated if you decide to do this!

 

[spencurai]

So are there any good links I can follow to figure out the whole conversion thing. I know www.gotpropane.com is a link for propane but CNG seems a little harder to find universal kits for.

 

[Spork]

My 2 cents...
CNG tanks are usually quite a bit more than propane (there was a guy selling one on craigslist for $600 yesterday), CNG is stored compressed something like 3600PSI
Propane is stored in liquid form (think CO2 vs Nitrogen), according to this site at 110 degrees F propane is only 204PSI.

Propane is available at lots of gas stations, CNG refill stations are more rare. I've heard the I can fill up the CNG at home thing but does your house put out 3600PSI? or are you going to need a compressor? Run out of fuel in a CNG vehicle then what? Tow it to your house?

I've been exposed to the propane in vehicles and I have no exposure to CNG in a vehicle. If it were me I would do propane.

 

[Milner]

I have driven several CNG cars. I would not own one! Much less power and the milage my be similar, but the tank size limits your range. As has been said, LPG is much easier to find. Not all areas have natural gas. Many small towns, even in Utah are "off the gas grid" and use LPG for heat/cooking.
The lack of lubrication in CNG is also concern to me. The cars we have at work require at least a tank of gasoline after every 2 tanks on CNG....

 

[sixb]

We'll this is my first post so hi to all. I drive a dedicated f150 cng pickup and it is great. Fuel is .63 a gallon of gas equivelant here in UT. Mine has a range of 180-230 miles depending on the fill psi. There is good info. at cngchat.com. Converting is very expensive but there is state and fed. incentives for converting, buying new and used cars and trucks, and at home filling equip. Mine is a dedicated so it is built to run on cng so no loss of power, I have read that the bi-fuels can be troublesome. It is definetly worth looking into.

 

[jamesgeologist]

I know this isn't an E-85 discussion but I successfully converted my 1998 Cherokee to run on E-85 and I have three tanks through it and it runs great. The cold start issues have been taken care of with newer technology, but overall the switch has been pain free. Take in to account that I can now run any blend of gas and E-85, I can shop for lowest price and availability. E-85 is only available in four locations across Utah and it is not always easy to find.

How many folks would be interested in converting to be able to run E-85 on their OBDII fuel injected vehicle? I am working towards a distribution plan for northern Utah if the interest is there.

As a side note, would the mods consider a alternative fuel technical section for the board?

 

[StrobeNGH]

I know this isn't an E-85 discussion but I successfully converted my 1998 Cherokee to run on E-85 and I have three tanks through it and it runs great. The cold start issues have been taken care of with newer technology, but overall the switch has been pain free. Take in to account that I can now run any blend of gas and E-85, I can shop for lowest price and availability. E-85 is only available in four locations across Utah and it is not always easy to find.

How many folks would be interested in converting to be able to run E-85 on their OBDII fuel injected vehicle? I am working towards a distribution plan for northern Utah if the interest is there.

As a side note, would the mods consider a alternative fuel technical section for the board?

My truck came from the factory with E-85 capability.
I went with the option b/c it gives you stronger, more corrosion resistant fuel components.

Where are the E-85 stations, and how much cheaper is E-85 than normal 85 octane?

And for the home fill on CNG:
You have to have a filler which compresses the gas. They run between 5 and 10 g's, and need to be calibrated every few years.

 

[StrobeNGH]

What is the current price of LPG in Utah?

 

[soda blaster]

If you really want to do a cng conversion you should talk to snomotion on 3rd west and around 1100 south thats is all they do is cng conversions. We run cng vehicles in our fleet and they are fine it costs 9.00 to fill the van up. The home compressor are slow you have to plug it in every night they have 2 different versions out the cheaper one does about 1/2 gallon an hour, the other one does about 1 gallon an hour. Usually it is very expensive to do a conversion to cng. We run cng because it is environmentally friendly and cheap.

 

[jamesgeologist]

Where are the E-85 stations, and how much cheaper is E-85 than normal 85 octane?

There are a few around, but mostly south of SLC. The prices are the same as regular. Most places like Colorado and Nebraska are up to 33% cheaper than regular making it a competitive fuel.

Reported E85 Prices-Last 30 days
Best 3 Prices from Each State- Click column title to sort
E85 Price Gas Price Price Spread Date City Station State Reported by
$1.99 $2.91 32% 02/23 Aurora Western Convenience, 1650 S. Chambers Rd Colorado pilotru (1)
$1.99 $2.85 30% 02/25 Fort Collins Western Convenience, 1113 West Drake Road Colorado greengenes (19)
$1.99 $2.81 29% 02/22 Fort Collins Western Convenience, 1113 West Drake Road Colorado chevycam (8)
$2.34 $3.16 26% 02/20 Desoto Kum & Go, 1203 Guthrie Iowa jdj (9)
$2.35 $3.19 26% 02/24 Dixon Shell Station, 1250 Franklin Grove Rd Illinois amsoiljeeper (11)
$2.33 $3.10 25% 02/20 Grimes Kum & Go, 1950 Princeton Dr Iowa jdj (9)
$2.49 $3.29 24% 02/21 Dekalb Hintzcsche Oil, 880 Peace Rd Illinois grabes (1)
$2.51 $3.29 24% 02/24 Watertown Sioux Valley Cooperative - Cenex, 220 10th Avenue NW South-Dakota shotgunboss (1)
$2.35 $3.09 24% 02/25 Oshkosh Utica Energy - Renew E85, Corner Hwy 41 and 76 Wisconsin Wabler (4)
$2.35 $3.04 23% 02/13 Oshkosh Utica Energy - Renew E85, Corner Hwy 41 and 76 Wisconsin Wabler (4)
$2.37 $3.09 23% 02/20 Greenwood Gas America, 5061 W. Smith Valley Rd Indiana KevinC (5)
$2.35 $3.04 23% 02/23 Little Chute Renew e85, 1902 Freedom Road Wisconsin kmeyer707 (2)
$2.39 $3.08 22% 01/30 Fishers Crystal Flash, 11544 Allisonville Road Indiana TSmith (18)
$2.39 $3.08 22% 01/31 Fishers Crystal Flash, 11544 Allisonville Road Indiana johncallen (8)
$2.59 $3.31 22% 02/13 Albany Campus Mobil, Western Ave New-York spauldtr (9)
$2.37 $3.05 22% 02/22 Hudson Cardtrol, 1144 Highway 63 North Iowa jdj (9)
$2.30 $2.90 21% 02/02 Saint Cloud Cenex, 1030 33rd St S Minnesota DanTraveling (5)
$2.85 $2.95 3% 02/12 Orem Christensen oil company, 524 north 1500 west Utah joegb (2)
$2.85 $2.95 3% 02/12 Provo Christensen Oil Company, 595 South 200 East Utah joegb (2)
$3.09 $3.05 -1% 02/20 Clearfield JP\'s American Car Care, 1350 East 700 S Utah johncallen (8)
As of January 2008 - 1,363 Stations Selling E85 across 1,041 Cities

Buying an E-85 truck or car is easy enough, but what about the folks that don't want to buy a new truck just for the E-85 flexibility? Most cars built after 1996 have fuel lines that will handle ethanol without deterioration. Running E-85 is no different than running B-20 in a diesel truck..... At worst, you replace a fuel filter after a tank or two.

 

[rkillpack]

my opinion

I converted my 93 suburban to LPG.I finally got it running about 5 months ago (not the setup's fault). I haven't ran it on the street because of legality reasons but plan on it being legal for a Moab trip after the EJS.

What I know after this little experiment:

Costs:
The tanks cost me $200 a piece (50 gallons total)
The propane setup (mixer, vaporizer, hoses, etc) cost me about $1200
The long block motor to run propane at a 12:1 compression ratio (427 w/forged everything) cost me about $4000.

Hassles:
To make big power requires special builds that no one is a specialist in locally. It all seems to be hit and miss with information. gotpropane.com is a big help.
I haven't even tackled the inspection places that are going to hate my lack of smog equipment on a 93 suburban. Frankly though it doesn't need it.

Benefits (if only percieved):

I can register as a clean fuels vehicle (38" Toyos, 8" lift, in the Carpool lane for free)
My oil will last longer between needed change outs (won't last forever, wear out issues)
Its unique (what suburban like that wouldn't be)

I would say it has been fun and a great learning experience. And if I had enough money to tinker relentlessly on it i would work it till it was perfect. But since I am not Bill Gates I am relegated to making small tweeks as I go along in hopes of creating what I see as the alternative fuel, Wondermobile. (I wonder if it will blow up, make it to the next fill station, make it up this obstacle, etc.)

 

[Caleb]

There are a few around, but mostly south of SLC. The prices are the same as regular. Most places like Colorado and Nebraska are up to 33% cheaper than regular making it a competitive fuel.

Reported E85 Prices-Last 30 days
Best 3 Prices from Each State- Click column title to sort
E85 Price Gas Price Price Spread Date City Station State Reported by
$1.99 $2.91 32% 02/23 Aurora Western Convenience, 1650 S. Chambers Rd Colorado pilotru (1)
$1.99 $2.85 30% 02/25 Fort Collins Western Convenience, 1113 West Drake Road Colorado greengenes (19)
$1.99 $2.81 29% 02/22 Fort Collins Western Convenience, 1113 West Drake Road Colorado chevycam (8)
$2.34 $3.16 26% 02/20 Desoto Kum & Go, 1203 Guthrie Iowa jdj (9)
$2.35 $3.19 26% 02/24 Dixon Shell Station, 1250 Franklin Grove Rd Illinois amsoiljeeper (11)
$2.33 $3.10 25% 02/20 Grimes Kum & Go, 1950 Princeton Dr Iowa jdj (9)
$2.49 $3.29 24% 02/21 Dekalb Hintzcsche Oil, 880 Peace Rd Illinois grabes (1)
$2.51 $3.29 24% 02/24 Watertown Sioux Valley Cooperative - Cenex, 220 10th Avenue NW South-Dakota shotgunboss (1)
$2.35 $3.09 24% 02/25 Oshkosh Utica Energy - Renew E85, Corner Hwy 41 and 76 Wisconsin Wabler (4)
$2.35 $3.04 23% 02/13 Oshkosh Utica Energy - Renew E85, Corner Hwy 41 and 76 Wisconsin Wabler (4)
$2.37 $3.09 23% 02/20 Greenwood Gas America, 5061 W. Smith Valley Rd Indiana KevinC (5)
$2.35 $3.04 23% 02/23 Little Chute Renew e85, 1902 Freedom Road Wisconsin kmeyer707 (2)
$2.39 $3.08 22% 01/30 Fishers Crystal Flash, 11544 Allisonville Road Indiana TSmith (18)
$2.39 $3.08 22% 01/31 Fishers Crystal Flash, 11544 Allisonville Road Indiana johncallen (8)
$2.59 $3.31 22% 02/13 Albany Campus Mobil, Western Ave New-York spauldtr (9)
$2.37 $3.05 22% 02/22 Hudson Cardtrol, 1144 Highway 63 North Iowa jdj (9)
$2.30 $2.90 21% 02/02 Saint Cloud Cenex, 1030 33rd St S Minnesota DanTraveling (5)
$2.85 $2.95 3% 02/12 Orem Christensen oil company, 524 north 1500 west Utah joegb (2)
$2.85 $2.95 3% 02/12 Provo Christensen Oil Company, 595 South 200 East Utah joegb (2)
$3.09 $3.05 -1% 02/20 Clearfield JP\'s American Car Care, 1350 East 700 S Utah johncallen (8)
As of January 2008 - 1,363 Stations Selling E85 across 1,041 Cities

Buying an E-85 truck or car is easy enough, but what about the folks that don't want to buy a new truck just for the E-85 flexibility? Most cars built after 1996 have fuel lines that will handle ethanol without deterioration. Running E-85 is no different than running B-20 in a diesel truck..... At worst, you replace a fuel filter after a tank or two.

IMO, the problem with E-85 is look at those prices. I pay only a dime more per gallon for mid-grade gas. I would never recoup the cost of a conversion. There is no real benefit of converting to E-85.

 

[RockMonkey]

There is no real benefit of converting to E-85.

It burns cleaner and would vastly reduce that thick layer of crap floating over our heads in the Salt Lake Valley on every calm day. You are sending your money to a farmer in the Mid-West instead of Venezuela or Saudi Arabia. That farmer takes that money and puts it back into our economy, instead of building some palace in the desert. Some of that money makes it back into my pocket and your pocket since that farmer (or someone he does business with) is my customer and your customer too.

E-85 may not be free and provide unlimited power, but to say there is no real benefit is short-sighted. It's not the perfect fuel (or even the ideal fuel) but it does have real benefits to our security, economy, and ecology.

 

[StrobeNGH]

It burns cleaner and would vastly reduce that thick layer of crap floating over our heads in the Salt Lake Valley on every calm day. You are sending your money to a farmer in the Mid-West instead of Venezuela or Saudi Arabia. That farmer takes that money and puts it back into our economy, instead of building some palace in the desert. Some of that money makes it back into my pocket and your pocket since that farmer (or someone he does business with) is my customer and your customer too.

E-85 may not be free and provide unlimited power, but to say there is no real benefit is short-sighted. It's not the perfect fuel (or even the ideal fuel) but it does have real benefits to our security, economy, and ecology.

Is it a cleaner burning fuel? I thought that the environmental friendliness of E-85 came from the fact that the corn E-85 comes from would deteriorate and pollute the environment anyway, so by using E-85 we are burning carbon fuel which would break down anyway, instead of digging oil out of the ground.
I may be wrong, and do not put much weight behind the above . . . it's simply what I thought I heard once.

I do know that E-85 is less efficient than gasoline.

Here's my question:
If we can turn corn and soy into fuel . . .






Why are we still giving farmers subsidies to NOT grow crops!?!?

 

[Broncoman]

my 2 cents. Savage Bros. have been working for a few years with cng in their heavy haul diesels . Some of the first #s they had were fantastic . They put the cng on a 425 cat. engine. Base horse power on diesel is 425 hp. With cng it went to over 2000. they were twisting off drive lines and breaking stuff every where . After some detuning, the last I heard, settled for around 750 hp with major engine life gains. Time between oil changes increased more than double . The biggest problem was teaching the drivers how to deal with the power increase and not tear up the equipment

 

[ATOYA4U]

IMO CNG is a great set up. All questar gas fleet vehicles run them. I use to run CNG on my tow rig 98 chev 2500/454. It was not a dedicated CNG so i had the option to switch from gas or CNG with the flip of a switch. It was an old set up basically a fog kit. Witch gave me about 30% power loss on CNG. Utah will give you a tax rebate of max $2500 for converting to an alternate fuel. It was a great set up and I miss the savings, 63 cents a gallon. It was cheaper for me to drive my 454 on CNG than my wifes altima!! If you figure gas is roughly 3 times the price of gasoline. My truck got 10 miles to the gallon. So it was basically like getting 30 miles to the gallon with a big block. Now the neagative! 1-The tanks are huge I ran (3) 7.2 gal tanks mounted to the flatbed. Witch didn't give a lot of room for cargo. 2-Fuel stations are not very common. 3- Fill up takes a while at the compressor stations (2500psi if memory serves) 4- Finding parts isn't as easy as running up the road to autozone. Just my .02 thought I mite throw it in the mix.