Full Hydro ram help.

zukgod1

Senior crawler
Location
Utah County
So I'm going to switch to full hydro.
I don't have a clue what ram to get.
The diameter is my concern, I can get the throw figured out but I don't want to get one to large or too small.
Running Superduty 60 with 40"tires.
What info can I provide to help?
Thanks
de772921a1b877a4bedb8b96ad9e7d16.jpg


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zukgod1

Senior crawler
Location
Utah County
Thanks. That had been one of my concerns.
I'm running a 1.5"ram now and it's too slow for my liking.

Have you noticed and power difference between the 2?

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Ashcat

Active Member
Location
Wisco
1.5" X ? X ? cylinder? Pump? Specs? Pulley/drive ratio? Steering gear ratio? Pitman arm length? Line sizes? Reservoir? Cooler? Overall system design? Cooler location and line orientation? Reservoir? Location? A lot of questions, right? My suggestion before asking questions about re-inventing your steering, is understand what you're working with right now. Otherwise you're going to be guessing again when it doesn't work out the way you want. Folks don't usually complain about 1.5" cylinders. I can't comment about full hydro, but I'd sacrifice strength over speed when you're talking about hydraulics. Last thing you want is unresponsive steering when you need it most. It'll be strong enough just about any way you spec it. I'd look to other avenues beyond the reaches of this forum if you want to put pen to paper and design a new steering system. Research what's proven. Don't ask. There's a few gems out there from a time when folks weren't utterly annoyed by the masses of the internet and cared enough to share straight talk. My point is asking about cyl diameter only is setting yourself up for failure.


Try these calculators and links to get your feet wet.
http://www.baumhydraulics.com/pages.php?pageid=4

Steering gear threads
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...ring-box-tech-thread-size-power-strength.html
Mine but incomplete
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford...t-side-hydro-assist-pitman-reversal-tech.html

I'll drop some stuff on you now just to get an idea

Ford steering gears run a generous 3.18" bore. Massive. That's why they have pinky steering. 17:1 ratio also decreases the effort however yields 4 turns lock to lock. The piston is 5" long riding inside a 7.40" long bore and the ball Race measures .75". Currently I run a Saginaw TC pump. Only way to go. Rollerized and good to 8,500 rpm shaft speed. This allows you to overdrive them. Most run a 1:1 drive. IE 6" crank pulley 6" pump pulley. Anyways it's a 1,300psi and 3gpm pump. My assist cyl is a PSC 1.75" x 8" x .75". It's very strong and fairly responsive unless you quickly change directions. As in: after you catch the ass end, keeping up with Newtons law can be a bitch unless you can increase pump speed with the skinny pedal. Not feasible if you're hooked up. Currently my pump is underdriven. I need to gain valuable pump shaft speed and I need to gain volume and pressure. Monday a PSC 1200X arrives at my door. 1,650psi and 4.5 gpm. This will help dramatically. Another thing I will consider is increasing my crank pulley diameter. Take a look at my numbers.

Cyl strength
Bore Psi Rod diameter - Push force Pull force
1.75" 1,300 .75" 3,127 2,553
* 1,650 * 3,969 3,240

Cyl speed
GPM Bore Stroke Rod - Ext speed Ret speed
3 1.75" 7.5" .75" 4.8"/Sec 5.9"/sec
Extend time: 1.6 sec - Retract: 1.3 sec - cycle 2.9 sec
4.5 * * * -
Extend time: 1 sec - Retract: .8 sec - cycle 1.8 sec

Steering gear
Bore Psi Rod Push Pull
3.18" 1,300 .75" 10,325lbs 9,751lbs
* 1,650 * 12,708lbs 12,001lbs

1.5GPM increase shaves 1.1 seconds from the cycle time of the steering piston following the same calcs above used for the assist cyl.

I run Parker 471ST -6 pressure hose, PSC 8.25" reservoir with a -10 feed line, Ford stacked plate transmission cooler from a 90s F-250.
 

Ashcat

Active Member
Location
Wisco
Take a look at this. By increasing the specs of the pump, my cyl can perform the same as the most common 1.5" x 6" x .625 cyl. assuming they were running 1,300psi and 3 gpm which iirc is above most P pumps, stock TC and Ford pumps (non-Saginaw)

Most likely if you're only wanting a DE ram, you're not experienced with your current setup and/or planning to upgrade/purchase/build a matching system for a successful full hydro setup. Sounds like I'm a dick but you asked a noob question and haven't disclosed your full intentions or experience. That's what I'm provoking from you from a technical standpoint and not a keeping up with Jones's he said Internet answer. Not judging you, I'm just trying to initiate some strong tech which this forum severely lacks.

So, if you haven't already, going full hydro is going to require a serious parts list. Some of which (pump, rezzy, cooler) apply to full hydro but will also benefit your current setup. Analyzing your current system and possibly making some changes without going full retard might save you big coin and downtime for fabrication. You just might fall in love with your steering again.

Gather all all of your data, create a parts list to correct your current setup and what full hydro would be and compare them in terms of labor, fab, cost and beneifits. Not saying you shouldn't go full hydro but it's summer time. Enjoy your jeep instead of taking a shot in the dark. When the snow falls, cut it apart and throw the new bling parts at it that you acquired this year after all of your research if that's what you ultimately decide is best for you.
 

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Thanks. That had been one of my concerns.
I'm running a 1.5"ram now and it's too slow for my liking.

Have you noticed and power difference between the 2?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

No noticeable difference between them power wise... I can take my steering wheel off and turn 40" stickies with the shaft sitting still on asphalt no problem.
I'm probably going to try a different orbital to slow mine down....
 

zukgod1

Senior crawler
Location
Utah County
Take a look at this. By increasing the specs of the pump, my cyl can perform the same as the most common 1.5" x 6" x .625 cyl. assuming they were running 1,300psi and 3 gpm which iirc is above most P pumps, stock TC and Ford pumps (non-Saginaw)

Most likely if you're only wanting a DE ram, you're not experienced with your current setup and/or planning to upgrade/purchase/build a matching system for a successful full hydro setup. Sounds like I'm a dick but you asked a noob question and haven't disclosed your full intentions or experience. That's what I'm provoking from you from a technical standpoint and not a keeping up with Jones's he said Internet answer. Not judging you, I'm just trying to initiate some strong tech which this forum severely lacks.

So, if you haven't already, going full hydro is going to require a serious parts list. Some of which (pump, rezzy, cooler) apply to full hydro but will also benefit your current setup. Analyzing your current system and possibly making some changes without going full retard might save you big coin and downtime for fabrication. You just might fall in love with your steering again.

Gather all all of your data, create a parts list to correct your current setup and what full hydro would be and compare them in terms of labor, fab, cost and beneifits. Not saying you shouldn't go full hydro but it's summer time. Enjoy your jeep instead of taking a shot in the dark. When the snow falls, cut it apart and throw the new bling parts at it that you acquired this year after all of your research if that's what you ultimately decide is best for you.



I appreciate the help and your are correct, the tech info in our little forum lacks at times.

In this case using anything on my current system will be irrelevant. Pitman arm length, pump volume etc. None of it matters at this point as I'll be changing it all.

I didn't mention so you would not know but the main reason for going full hydro is due to clearance issues. I'm using the Weaver Fab high steer arms currently and with the ride height I want my steering hits the frame. I cannot mount under the arms due to tie rod to pumpkin clearance issues so I'm stuck. Either have it sitting higher than I want and still worry about my steering hitting the frame OR go full hydro and worry not.

So, full hydro it will be.

In this aspect is where I need help. Ram Dia is a concern. I realize at this point that the Steering valve is what I need to concentrate on as well. the CC output will be the issue from what I've found.
I'll use a 2.5" ram and want a steering valve thats a max of 2.5 lock to lock.
Now for picking the correct one.

Ploy Performance/PCS offers a kit for $1245.00/ Steering valve, Stub shaft, Ram and tie rods. I'll need to call them to get the specs on the steering valve looks like.

Thank you for posting even though in this case I can't use it. Maybe someone in the future can.
 

Ashcat

Active Member
Location
Wisco
I know very well of the tie rod/pumpkin issues. I wanted to be higher for a few reasons and more turning radius but yes it's a pita to package it all and still clear that diff cover.

Again I will disclaim that I have no valuable full hydro knowledge because at this time I'm not interested in it so I don't occupy my mind with technical specs but I can say this, buy the correct pump the first time. Ask those questions when talking to a dealer. Also, ask them (shop around, don't settle on a brand or distributor because they're silver tongued) About steering speed in relation to cylinder diameter. I don't know your driving style or how full hydro cyl diameters vary but I can't see them being "under powered" for prioritizing speed since you're only running 40s. I already hate "slow" steering because my pump was too small for the pistons I was trying to work. I have read many of horror story though of maiden voyage full hydro setups. Typically it boils (hahaha) down to improper pump (too small), cavitation and fluid capacity. Be mindful of that. Obviously you want to enjoy your Jeep and not pull your hair out from not getting it right the first time.
 

1993yj

.
Location
Salt Lake
I did one of trail gears full hydro kits. Went with a 10" ram and added about 1.25" of internal stops (just under .75" per side). Everything was sized together so speed works well. It was easy to do and the most economical way I found for a full kit that was sized right. The stock steering pump on my yj is almost identical to the pumps they have, so I am still using my stock pump and just swapped pulleys.
 

zukgod1

Senior crawler
Location
Utah County
I know very well of the tie rod/pumpkin issues. I wanted to be higher for a few reasons and more turning radius but yes it's a pita to package it all and still clear that diff cover.

Again I will disclaim that I have no valuable full hydro knowledge because at this time I'm not interested in it so I don't occupy my mind with technical specs but I can say this, buy the correct pump the first time. Ask those questions when talking to a dealer. Also, ask them (shop around, don't settle on a brand or distributor because they're silver tongued) About steering speed in relation to cylinder diameter. I don't know your driving style or how full hydro cyl diameters vary but I can't see them being "under powered" for prioritizing speed since you're only running 40s. I already hate "slow" steering because my pump was too small for the pistons I was trying to work. I have read many of horror story though of maiden voyage full hydro setups. Typically it boils (hahaha) down to improper pump (too small), cavitation and fluid capacity. Be mindful of that. Obviously you want to enjoy your Jeep and not pull your hair out from not getting it right the first time.


I get what you are saying. I have a PSC pump that has the proper PSI/FLOW as per their specs.
I also have their underdrive pulley so none of this is a problem.

My concern is and was the ram itself, size wise. 2.5" vs 3" etc. I realize There wasn't enough info originally so for that I appologize.

I posed the question as there are SEVERAL people here that have gone full hydro and have the experience I desire. Having all PSC stuff I do not think my current expectations of having a reactive steering is out of line either so again with the ram size.

Maybe with all the knowledge you have on the subject you could make a post that we could then make a stickie for everyone in the future.
 

Agility Customs

Well-Known Member
Vendor
I get what you are saying. I have a PSC pump that has the proper PSI/FLOW as per their specs.
I also have their underdrive pulley so none of this is a problem.

My concern is and was the ram itself, size wise. 2.5" vs 3" etc. I realize There wasn't enough info originally so for that I appologize.

I posed the question as there are SEVERAL people here that have gone full hydro and have the experience I desire. Having all PSC stuff I do not think my current expectations of having a reactive steering is out of line either so again with the ram size.

Maybe with all the knowledge you have on the subject you could make a post that we could then make a stickie for everyone in the future.

a 3" cylinder is way to big for a rec wheeler that you want quick steering out of, even in the competitive rock crawling world I can only think of one person running 3" cylinders and the pump from PSC he had to have to run it is right around a thousand bucks just for the pump,pulley and reservoir. I would run a 2.5" cylinder and never look back.

this is the pump you need to run a 3" cylinder, unfortunately they are super sensitive to pressure spikes and will lock up and fail sooner or later. They recommend only teams that are doing full race prep and sending these pumps back to be rebuilt a few times a year run them, With all this being said we require more out of our power steering pumps than any rec wheeler does so you might get by and be ok.....

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/motor...cbr-power-steering-pump-8-out-12-in-15-0.html
 
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