Gas VS Diesel what to look for.

alwaysxj

one hot moma!!!!
Location
Smithfield
So I am still really new to the whole truck and towing thing. I've always drove a jeep as a DD. I am towing a camper that weights about 7k or more loaded, with a 2002 dodge 1500 with the 5.9L. It just doesn't seem like the truck is up to it and i am worried i will run the truck in to the ground if i keep towing with it. I am looking to upgrade to a 2500 or even a 3500 gas or diesel. looking to spend up to 11k. I have done some reading about diesels and it seems the truck to buy is a dodge 1996-1998 and some of the ford 7.3L. I would like 4 full doors if i can since that is what i am used to. what years and make of gas or diesel should i be looking for not too picky on make but i would like something newer than 98. Also when I am not towing the camper i daily drive the truck so i would like something that gets "good" gas mileage. I have a buddy that tows with a GMC with the 6.0 but he tells me around town he only gets about 10 mpg I need something better than that. Is this what i can expect out of a gas motor?

Thanks for any help!
 
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1adam12

THE BEAST
Location
MAGNA
Unless you pull 10k plus you really dont need a deisel as far as gassers go I would only drive a chevy or a new tundra, and im a ford fan. I just think those two gassers are superior to the ford and dodge options. 3/4 will be fine. My friend claims 20mpg with a 6.0 gm but he is old and drives like a grandpa.
 

alwaysxj

one hot moma!!!!
Location
Smithfield
Yeah i kind of thought my buddy was full of it, he does have a heavy though but still i would think it would get better then 10. my truck now gets 13-14. what about the 8.0 Chevy or GMC or how are the V-10 fords or any gas motor from ford for that matter?
Thanks!
 

1adam12

THE BEAST
Location
MAGNA
I also think most peolpe exaggerate the mpg of the deisels. My 7.3 gets 14 empty 10 towing with 4.10 gears my brother has 3.73 and gets 16 and 12. I know many people with the cummins and the on board computer will show 18 to 22 but when they calculate it them selves it comes out less. My 2 cents good luck.
 

UFAB

Well-Known Member
Location
Lehi Ut
Gas is about a buck cheaper. Oil changes are a fraction of a diesel.

Spark plugs are way cheaper than glow plugs and injectors.

Realistic MPGs vary per vehicle.

Had a 2002 F250 4x4 7.3 with 3.73 33" tires
9-10 mpg towing 7000lbs
14-17 empty

2011 f150 5.0 gas 3.73 gears 34" tires
9-12 mpg towing 7000lbs
16-20 empty
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
I also think most peolpe exaggerate the mpg of the deisels. My 7.3 gets 14 empty 10 towing with 4.10 gears my brother has 3.73 and gets 16 and 12. I know many people with the cummins and the on board computer will show 18 to 22 but when they calculate it them selves it comes out less. My 2 cents good luck.

This. I had the "mileage" 555 Dodge Cummins (2003-2004). Also had the 7.3L SuperDuty. My mileage matched the above. Cummins did get better mileage, but not by more than 2 mpg or so. The claimed 23 mpg is a bunch of horseshit unless someone has a 2wd truck and a commute they can drive at 60-62 mph.

Gas is about a buck cheaper. Oil changes are a fraction of a diesel.

Spark plugs are way cheaper than glow plugs and injectors.

Realistic MPGs vary per vehicle.

Had a 2002 F250 4x4 7.3 with 3.73 33" tires
9-10 mpg towing 7000lbs
14-17 empty

2011 f150 5.0 gas 3.73 gears 34" tires
9-12 mpg towing 7000lbs
16-20 empty

I'm likely moving back to an older school gasser and just leaving it parked in the backyard when it's not in use. The diesels are great to tow heavy loads and just set the cruise no matter what the hill is. They're a pain if something goes wrong and somewhat expensive to maintain/repair. More things to go wrong with the diesel. Diesel is turbo, injector pump, injectors ($400 per), front axle, motor and trans. vs. motor and trans on a gasser (You can debate the front end wear on a gasser vs. heavier diesel motor depending on design of front susp.). When diesel was 80% of the cost of gasoline, they made a lot of sense to use. Now with the mileage hits from the emissions controls and the cost to upgrade to a diesel when you buy it, it's tough to justify a diesel.

The gasser will not get great mileage but will do the job. You'll have to wind it up to get up the hills, but that works for me. Looking for a simple truck is kind of a challenge. People like all the touch screens and multi-zoned climate control zones. When that shit breaks, you'll be bringing your wallet. The person that buys it from the dealer couldn't care less as they'll trade the truck off before, or if it becomes a problem.

I'm in your same shoes with a 6000 lb camp trailer and a 4500 lb Jeep on a trailer (6000 lbs). This year, we're towing with a 2001 Navigator (air suspension, 32 valve 5.4L, etc.). We'll see how that goes. After buying my new DD JKU, I need a minute for my wallet to recover from my Dodge repairs and buying my Jeep. I'm approaching towing max with the Nav chassis, but it'll handle it at least short term. I really think I'll end up with a crew cab '90s Ford by the end of the year. Preferably a 5 speed, 460 truck. It won't rip up the hills but will do what I need it to do. Also under consideration would be as new of a V10 Ford as I can pay cash for and possibly a big gasser GM (Sub or crew cab--preferably pickup--8.1L preferred but 6.0L would be considered).
 

BCGPER

Starting Another Thread
Location
Sunny Arizona
Too bad my old one doesn't have the back seat you're looking for Marc. It's likely coming on the market real soon, and you'd be hard pressed to find a cleaner V-10 with the 4.30 gearing.

Also under consideration would be as new of a V10 Ford as I can pay cash for and possibly a big gasser GM (Sub or crew cab--preferably pickup--8.1L preferred but 6.0L would be considered).
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Too bad my old one doesn't have the back seat you're looking for Marc. It's likely coming on the market real soon, and you'd be hard pressed to find a cleaner V-10 with the 4.30 gearing.

That's a super clean truck and just like you say. Just not quite the back seat I'm looking for. I might take the kids on a test drive in one though and see how bad it really is for them. My daughter. Not a problem back there. The boys aren't getting any smaller, though. Corbin turns 16 in a month. Not sure how many more trips he'll be in the truck with us again?
 

larrybenny

larrybenny
I too had a 2000 era Dodge diesel with a 10 ft cab over camper and towed my jeep and trailer with it. We have a handicapped teenager that we had to leave home in the past since it just wasn't feasible to take her. We purchased a 30 ft class C E450 motorhome last year (2006) so we can take the daughter and still tow the jeep and trailer. The engine is a ford V-10 ohv with 390 hp and around 500 lb of torque. With the 5r110w trans, I get 9.5 mpg towing and 11 mpg without. Just saying its an option for comfort and towing. Still use the jeep as the daily driver.
 

alwaysxj

one hot moma!!!!
Location
Smithfield
So with my current set up that i have if i added some bags to the back and took it easy. Do you think my truck is big enough or should i not waste my time and money? I am just not seeing anything on the market worth getting. I have a local car dealer looking for what i want but he said it will be a while. My registration is coming up and i don't want to fork out the money to register it if i am only keeping it for a month or so. I personally would rather keep my truck and put some money in to it. I am just worried i will run it in to the ground pulling that much weight.
 

alwaysxj

one hot moma!!!!
Location
Smithfield
I too had a 2000 era Dodge diesel with a 10 ft cab over camper and towed my jeep and trailer with it. We have a handicapped teenager that we had to leave home in the past since it just wasn't feasible to take her. We purchased a 30 ft class C E450 motorhome last year (2006) so we can take the daughter and still tow the jeep and trailer. The engine is a ford V-10 ohv with 390 hp and around 500 lb of torque. With the 5r110w trans, I get 9.5 mpg towing and 11 mpg without. Just saying its an option for comfort and towing. Still use the jeep as the daily driver.
i ended up selling the jeep to get the camper...:(
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
So with my current set up that i have if i added some bags to the back and took it easy. Do you think my truck is big enough or should i not waste my time and money? I am just not seeing anything on the market worth getting. I have a local car dealer looking for what i want but he said it will be a while. My registration is coming up and i don't want to fork out the money to register it if i am only keeping it for a month or so. I personally would rather keep my truck and put some money in to it. I am just worried i will run it in to the ground pulling that much weight.

Here's how I'd address this situation---

1) get the hitch adjusted as well is it can be---low-no cost

2) air bags?--- $300?

3) evaluate where you're at with the truck---how often you use it, how it reacts to the load with the hitch adjusted and the bags and make your decision. Buy at least a 3/4 ton if you do buy
 

TurboMinivan

Still plays with cars
Location
Lehi, UT
I am towing a camper that weights about 7k or more loaded, with a 2002 dodge 1500 with the 5.9L. It just doesn't seem like the truck is up to it

Your are approaching your truck's maximum rated towing capacity, so that explains whey you feel the way you do.

it seems the truck to buy is a dodge 1996-1998 .... I would like 4 full doors if i can since that is what i am used to.

A Dodge of that era will only offer the QuadCab, which means rear-hinged half doors for the back seat.

Also when I am not towing the camper i daily drive the truck so i would like something that gets "good" gas mileage.

A truck rated to tow 10,000+ pounds is simply not going to generate "good" gas mileage, and anyone who says differently is selling something. If you're worried about being eaten out of house and home by your daily fuel bill, you'll come out way ahead financially if you skip on the $11k tow rig and instead spend only $6k on a tow-use-only big block truck/SUV and spend the remaining $5k on a 4cyl economy sedan for the rest of your driving duties. Seriously.
 
So with my current set up that i have if i added some bags to the back and took it easy. Do you think my truck is big enough or should i not waste my time and money? I am just not seeing anything on the market worth getting. I have a local car dealer looking for what i want but he said it will be a while. My registration is coming up and i don't want to fork out the money to register it if i am only keeping it for a month or so. I personally would rather keep my truck and put some money in to it. I am just worried i will run it in to the ground pulling that much weight.

Ok, the good news is that you already own the truck and it kind of pulls the load. That's a pretty nice truck, I've rented a few and my neighbors have one. Great daily driver, not all that different from the F150 Supercrew that I drive. Dempsey is correct that you are at max load at 7000#, and legal-wise if you go over and something bad happens the insurance company will leave you high and dry. I'm surprised that the tow rating isn't higher. Oddly, the '02 2500 5.9 quad cab was only rated at 8100#. Not that strange I guess, same drivetrain, just bigger axles and stiffer springs. Newer years with basically the same setup have 10,000ish ratings. I just peeked at the 2004 Cummins quad cab, 555 says 3.73=10,000, 4.10=12,000 and 610 version gets you 13,050 (Chev/Ford must have been 13,000 that year)

Here's a link to some towing guides by year: http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/ ( found this after I was done writing everything else, so the numbers may be little different)

To keep from thrashing your rig, you need all the cooling you can muster. Tranny cooler, larger finned diff cover. Synthetic lubes. Rear bags will help a lot, and get good shocks to help the truck control the load. EQ bars are a must if you don't have them already. Brake controller is assumed. And I guess you need to decide how you want to attack the uphills, what RPM are you comfortable with? That's where the big blocks / diesels are nice. And that's what drove me to diesel, I just got tired of wrapping out the 454 on every hill, especially long hills. Maybe the 8.1 and V10 are better. Campers also have more of a drag than a jeep on the flats, so your truck is working hard ALL the time, not just on the hills. That puts a sustained load on everything, especially that 9.25 rear axle.

I've used a bronco, blazer, cherokee, 3/4ton 2wd chev, 1ton dually chev, 1/2ton burb, 1/2ton xcab chev, 3/4ton burb and eXcursion to tow loads from 2000 to 12000#. Personally, I hated towing anything over 5000# with anything less than a 3/4ton (based on pre-'00 vehicles).

Newer stuff seems to be better equipped. My '08 supercrew seems to be about the same in stability, braking and overall HP as my '99 454 burb, though the engine has to wrap on the hills to maintain speed. Technically it's a 1/2ton, but axle, wheelbase, HP, brakes are all equivalent to 90's 3/4tons. Even the tow ratings. Mine has the 3.55 gears, so 8200# rating. 3.73's get you 9200#. Towing a jeep on a trailer is pretty low stress, other than max rpm on the hills. Now two jeeps? Naw.

Pretty much agree with the gas vs diesel comments above. My diesel X gets way better mileage than my 454 burb did, and diesel costs more. I've spent some money on it (tranny, turbo, tunes, bags, etc) but it's a keeper for me. The tow rating for mine was 11,000# (F250 with same drivetrain and wheelbase is 12,500# but max GCWR is same at 20,000#)

If I had to sell it and couldn't get an '02 crew with the 7.3 set up the same as mine, and couldn't afford a newer one (no 6.0 unless someone had already paid the penalty), I'd find a way to buy my neighbor's '99 V10 crew shortbed, replace the dinky 265's with less dinky 285's and be done. Of course that year was only rated at 10,000#, two years later the same truck is magically rated at 10,800 or 12,500 depending on axle ratio. Two years later than that, it's 12,500 or 15,000 for the dually. Bumper pull. Go figure.
 

benjy

Rarely wrenches
Supporting Member
Location
Moab
This. I had the "mileage" 555 Dodge Cummins (2003-2004). Also had the 7.3L SuperDuty. My mileage matched the above. Cummins did get better mileage, but not by more than 2 mpg or so. The claimed 23 mpg is a bunch of horseshit unless someone has a 2wd truck and a commute they can drive at 60-62 mph.



I'm likely moving back to an older school gasser and just leaving it parked in the backyard when it's not in use. The diesels are great to tow heavy loads and just set the cruise no matter what the hill is. They're a pain if something goes wrong and somewhat expensive to maintain/repair. More things to go wrong with the diesel. Diesel is turbo, injector pump, injectors ($400 per), front axle, motor and trans. vs. motor and trans on a gasser (You can debate the front end wear on a gasser vs. heavier diesel motor depending on design of front susp.). When diesel was 80% of the cost of gasoline, they made a lot of sense to use. Now with the mileage hits from the emissions controls and the cost to upgrade to a diesel when you buy it, it's tough to justify a diesel.

The gasser will not get great mileage but will do the job. You'll have to wind it up to get up the hills, but that works for me. Looking for a simple truck is kind of a challenge. People like all the touch screens and multi-zoned climate control zones. When that shit breaks, you'll be bringing your wallet. The person that buys it from the dealer couldn't care less as they'll trade the truck off before, or if it becomes a problem.

I'm in your same shoes with a 6000 lb camp trailer and a 4500 lb Jeep on a trailer (6000 lbs). This year, we're towing with a 2001 Navigator (air suspension, 32 valve 5.4L, etc.). We'll see how that goes. After buying my new DD JKU, I need a minute for my wallet to recover from my Dodge repairs and buying my Jeep. I'm approaching towing max with the Nav chassis, but it'll handle it at least short term. I really think I'll end up with a crew cab '90s Ford by the end of the year. Preferably a 5 speed, 460 truck. It won't rip up the hills but will do what I need it to do. Also under consideration would be as new of a V10 Ford as I can pay cash for and possibly a big gasser GM (Sub or crew cab--preferably pickup--8.1L preferred but 6.0L would be considered).

If it was possible to sticky posts, this one should be stickied. Completely agree with everything.

I sold my diesel last year, and bought a 1 ton GMC with a 6.0L. I was really worried about how I would like towing with it, but it really isn't that bad at all with a jeep on the bed and a 6k lb trailer in tow. I am able to tow the canyons as fast I feel is safe anyway. The only time I dislike it is at the gas pump (7-8mpg with a full load), but it holds 50 gallons so I only have to go through that once or twice per trip :D
 

flexyfool

GDW
Location
Boise, Idaho
This. I had the "mileage" 555 Dodge Cummins (2003-2004). Also had the 7.3L SuperDuty. My mileage matched the above. Cummins did get better mileage, but not by more than 2 mpg or so. The claimed 23 mpg is a bunch of horseshit unless someone has a 2wd truck and a commute they can drive at 60-62 mph.

I've seen some ridiculously high MPG claims posted on the net. I think 50% of people lie more or less, and 25% of people just don't know. Dodge owners like to use the console MPG readings, but my experience is that it reads 20-40% too high and varies with the amount of fuel in the tank. More fuel gives a higher reading. LOL!

Below are MPG numbers of my past and present tow rigs. These are true numbers calculated from many trips. All numbers are on flat ground and low elevations and no head or tail winds.

'85 Dodge, 318 v8 (edlebrock intake and carb), auto, 4.10, 33" tires, 4" lift
12 MPG unloaded at 65 MPH
4 MPG towing 7k at 65 MPH

'96 Ford Powerstroke 7.3L, auto, 4.10, 32" tires, 2" lift
18 MPG unloaded town or highway
16 MPG towing 7k at 65 MPH


'06 Dodge Cummins, manual 6 speed, 3.73, 37" tires, mild chip (Edge Mileage Max), 4" lift
20-22 MPG around town
18 MPG 65 MPH
16 MPG towing 7K at 65 MPH
11 MPG towing 7K at 80 MPH

The Cummins can get really good MPG if I milk it and drive slow. It gets much better town/city MPG than highway. It can get very poor MPG driving fast. I think the big issue is that wind gets under the chassis. Lift and aftermarket bumper with no air dam don't help. Worst MPG was blasting down the highway going 80 MPH into a headwind with the 7k car hauler trailer and popup bed camper. MPG dropped to 5. I got home quick though.

The old Powerstroke was a beast. Fast acceleration. Consistent MPG. Top speed was about 70 MPH, and it didn't like doing it either.
 

LT.

Well-Known Member
If i was looking for a gas powered tow rig it would be a chevy. I am a dodge fan and i own a 1500 hemi but, i doubt the hemi would do well towing. In my hemi's current configuration the best mileage i have seen is only 18 mpg. I bet towing mileage would be single digits at best. If you go diesel it is tough to go wrong with any of the big three in the price range you are in. Dodge will have the worst interiors but, best engine and good drive train. Ford has good interior and good drivetrain but, will be more thirsty for fuel. 7.3 is a big diesel engine. Chevy will have the most comfortable interior, good engine great rear axle and tranny and a front end that will be okay if you keep up with the wear items. Lots of moving parts on the IFS front end.

I have listened to all the hype on the ford gas engines and their towing ratings. Having been issued one for work i believe their are over rated. My current issued vehicle is a chevy with the ls engine and think it will out run the ford all day long.

3/4 ton will be your best bet. If you want four full sized doors then ford and chevy are your only choices. For gas i would give the chevy the nod. For diesel it is still between ford and chevy. Either would do you well.

LT.
 
Amen to that.

'99 454 burb gave me 10-11, towing was 8-10. Period. Oddly, my '81 burb wasn't much different, just slower. Most of my other full size gassers were in this range.

'08 Supercrew nets 14ish on drives to mines in northern Nevada (83ish) 16ish if I slow down a little. '95 TBI chev xcab was about the same.

Deezy X gives me 9-11ish towing, 11-12 around town, 14.5 going to SoCal at 83mph, and 25 @ 55mph controlled test with no speed variations. All values at the pump. Overhead tells the truth in stock mode. Tends to embellish a bit in warp drive.

Your mileage may vary. :-D
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
There is no way a diesel is reasonable as a daily driver unless you own a landscaping company.

The thing about diesels is they get really crappy mileage until they warm up which isn't 5 or 10 miles in the winter. Figure in the initial premium you pay for the truck, the added fuel cost, $100 oil changes and you will never come out ahead. If something breaks you will spend the price of a decent older gas truck to repair the diesel engine. I love my Excursion with the PSD but it sits most of the time unless the whole family is going together or I am pulling something. The best part about the scurg is when I go riding with 3 or 4 friends we can all ride in comfort and when everyone pitches in for fuel it's almost bearable.

I would follow the advice already given and buy and older truck and a 4 cylinder car. Then you get the best of both worlds.
 

Bart

Registered User
Location
Arm Utah
I've been through this thought process many times and agree with what Mbryson said. I don't tow much so I'm fairly please with my 03 GMC 1500 with a 5.3. I can still tow 60 over Soldiers Summit with the squirrels screaming, and get about 10.5 towing to Moab. I get an average of 16 around town and will get 20+ driving round trip to Ogden and back.

I may go the route that Benjy did and get a flat bed in a gasser and use it mostly dedicated to hauling the buggy.
 
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