Gauging interest in a VW TDI swap kit...

[XJ92TDI]

Hey everyone...(obviously) I'm new here, but I'm just trying to gauge interest in parts to swap a VW TDI into a jeep. I've got a 92 XJ (hence the name) that I will be using to prototype the initial transmission adapter and motor mounts, but would like feedback from other jeepers as to what they are looking for. Obviously, it's a long list for a swap like this, so right now, I'd just like to get an idea of how many people would be interested, and for which models of Jeeps, which transmissions and the engines they would be replacing. I will also be posting on some other sites as well, so if you respond here, please don't respond to the others as well, I'd like to get an honest idea. I figure, there's nothing better than 4 wheeling, except being able to 'wheel more often because you are spending half as much money on fuel!
Thanks,
Sean

 

[Greg]

Just curious how much homework you've done... I've looked extensively into using a VW TDI engine for a 4x4, but they are very small and while you can get a good deal of torque out of them, moving around a big 4x4 with oversize tires may be taxing the motor more than it wants, 1.9 liters isn't much to begin with when they only make 150 ft/lbs stock. Gearing and tire size will need to be a perfect match or it will be a dog. Turning up a TDI engine will net you around 220-240 ft/lbs and that will be pushing the motor pretty hard.

VW diesel engine swaps are quite popular for the Suzuki crowd and IMO that's about the ideal sized vehicle for one of those engines. Personally I would like a 2nd Gen Toyota PU with a TDI swap, but parts to bolt a TDI engine to a Toyota transmission are available from a number of vendors. I think a Toyota is about the max sized 4x4 you'd want to use with a TDI engine.

FYI... daily driver is a TDI Jetta, which I love, but I don't know that it's the best choice for a Jeep engine swap. I would lean towards a Cummins 3.3l if we're talking mid-sized 4x4's.

 

[XJ92TDI]

Well, what I've been looking at is the new 2.0TDI. They make 140hp and 235ft-lb stock, and with just a flash the owners (that I've seen on the current gen TDI boards) are getting around 300ft-lb. One person had swapped the TDI into an Audi A4 Quattro, did a flash, injectors and...something else I can't remember off the top of my head, I want to say cams, and is getting 214whp and 365ft-lb. A Jeep XJ or TJ wouldn't weigh too much more than a Passat or even the current Jettas from what I've read...if not lighter.

 

[Chevycrew]

How about price? Is it really worth 5 grand to make an xj get 25-30mpg?

 

[Greg]

Well, what I've been looking at is the new 2.0TDI. They make 140hp and 235ft-lb stock, and with just a flash the owners (that I've seen on the current gen TDI boards) are getting around 300ft-lb. One person had swapped the TDI into an Audi A4 Quattro, did a flash, injectors and...something else I can't remember off the top of my head, I want to say cams, and is getting 214whp and 365ft-lb. A Jeep XJ or TJ wouldn't weigh too much more than a Passat or even the current Jettas from what I've read...if not lighter.

OK, so you're looking at the newer PD engines. That would be better power-wise, what's your solution to all the wiring? I understand the PD's are very computer controlled and nobody has come up with a aftermarket wiring harness yet.

Myself, I would be interested in a similar swap but in DIY form. I like doing the work myself.

The weight between the VW's and a Jeep may be similar, but you're still working with larger tires on the Jeeps, that's a lot of additional rotating mass.

 

[XJ92TDI]

How about price? Is it really worth 5 grand to make an xj get 25-30mpg?

If I could take my XJ, that for now is still stock, from 17mpg average to 30mpg average, the swap would be worth it, because I could stop driving my mustang every day and use my jeep for a 40 mile commute to and from work. But for the average enthusiast, if it's a pure trail rig, it might not make sense. For the average enthusiast who's rig is being built the same as mine, a trail rig and daily driver, it could very well be worth it. Besides, consider what it would cost to make 300ft-lb out of a 4.0. You would have to do one of two things, either rebuild the head and put an aftermarket cam, intake, header, exhaust, etc. in, which could easily run $1500-2000 or more with porting, and you would get about the same mileage, or you end up building a stroker, which is still $1500-2000 with stock parts, $3000 or more if you want the strokers parts to work together. There's also this whole part of 4 wheeling to tread lightly, and the TDI diesel is far cleaner than any 4.0 is...especially if your 4.0 leaks oil. But this is why I'm asking the question, because some people might have a 15-20 year old jeep that is on the verge of needing a complete rebuild, so I just want to offer another possibility and see where people stand.

 

[Rot Box]

Fuel economy, getting away from a leaking rear main and cleaner air on the trail do not justify the cost of a swap like this for most people. It will cost you a lot of time and money the TDI's have complex wiring and almost everyone will tell you to buy a running car for a donor and use all of its harness. You could make your own controller I guess--are you comfortable doing so? I love diesels and don't want to sound negative but I just don't think there would be enough interest to make the payoff worth the investment.

Why the VW? A lot of people look to the diesel option for simplicity. MB OM617 or Cummins 3.9 would be my choice the VW would not like the conditions that my 4x4 sees.

 

[big cherokee]

have you looked into pricing these motors out they are very very very hard to find in wrecked cars or used, also thest motors have tons of wiring going to them.

also the 2.0 pumpe dues only came in the passat, jettas still had a 1.9 liter.

now if your talking the new common rail better be ready to drop around at least 10 grand as there brand new and very very computer controlled and hard to get ahold of.


i have been working for vw for 10 years now and am tdi trained on the new common rails and pd diesels.

the older tdi would work and have seen the swap done, and with the right gearing would probably work very well. i have seen tdi turned up with bigger pumps,injectors, turboes, chips, exhaust and so forth and they move.


i still think i would go with a tdi over a 4b cummins those motors are huge, the lift and fab you have to have to make them fit is crazy, tdi is a good small package that are very very reliable.


actually had a guy come in the shop the other day with a 97 jetta tdi with 380k on the odometer on the original engine.

 

[JL Rockies]

MOPAR was set to offer a kit to drop in the 2.8 VM Motori CRD engine already found in Jeeps in Europe back in 07. I am sure that it was scrapped with the collapse of Chrysler. That engine creates more power and torque and is easier to swap. I have a few friends who have put one in their JKs and XJs in CO. I was lucky enough to find a KJ CRD so I didn't have to swap anything.

 

[Greg]

IMO the best option for a Jeep would be using the Cummins 3.3l 4 cyl. It's not nearly the size of the 4BT, much less weight and will get mileage in the mid-30's. Plus they can be all mechanical, so no worries about the wiring and ECU concerns.

 

[TheBigSgt]

WOW, interesting idea, but would have to say ALOT of work, and you could buy alot of gas for the time and money you are looking at. I would have to think the 2.7 would be the best.

 

[big cherokee]

i guess i dont know much about the 3.3 liter cummins motor, have to fill me in greg sounds like a cool motor.

the crd is also a great motor.


chrysler before the colapse actually traded vw there town and country van body, for vw diesel technology to try and get a 50 state legal diesel.

but im not sure what will happen with that move now that chrysler is going under.

 

[big cherokee]

by the way sorry to get off topic it would be a cool kit to put together. so go at it.

 

[Greg]

i guess i dont know much about the 3.3 liter cummins motor, have to fill me in greg sounds like a cool motor....

The 3.3's are harder to find compared to the 4BT, but they are out there. They makee around 215 ft/lbs in stock trim, of course you can add fuel and boost for more. Most of the guys that have swapped them in are pulling down mileage numbers in the mid 30's. They have a SAE bolt patten and I believe it's Phoenix Adapters that makes parts to bolt them up to popular transmissions.

Here's some reading for ya.-

http://www.cummins-sp.com/engines/industrial/b33_engine.htm

http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

[JL Rockies]

I have a friend back in FL who put a Cummins from a bread truck in his YJ. He owns a transmission shop and whe diesel went to $5 per gallon last year, he filled the tank with a 50/50 mixture of new and used tranny fluid. He first tried 100% used tranny fluid but it was far too smokey. True story.

The CRD is my first diesel and I don't think I can go back to spark-infested engines ever again!

 

[XJ92TDI]

Ok, so I've been working on acquiring some of the parts needed, and working with my partner in this project, we decided we want to get some input from the other people who are interested, because they may not be as insane as we are. So, let's get some feedback! For those of you who are interested in this conversion, what are you looking for EXACTLY? What model, engine, trans would you want it for?
100% inclusive, including engine?
Complete swap kit without engine?
Just the basics (engine mounts, trans adapter) and you figure out everything else?
Wiring harness included, or just a schematic to wire it yourself?
Complete fuel system, or just instructions?
Would you want a complete intercooler, or figure that out yourself?
What would you be willing to pay for a complete kit sans engine?
What would you be willing to pay for the basic hard parts and instructions for the rest?
What would you be willing to pay for just the components you want?
I know everyone would want to say "I want it free" but let's try to be realistic. Find a TDI in a pull it yourself junkyard and you can get the complete engine for probably well under $1000, so figure on what else you would want.

 

[rholbrook]

Dave, the owner of AEV has an oil burner in his right hand drive jeep. He was looking at creating a kit but found it too expensive and not enough interest. Those guys do a lot of conversions and decided to bag it. A diesel would be really cool if it could be done inexpensively. Good luck with this and of course keep us posted but know that there are people out there that would buy everything from you ready to bolt in and guys out there that would source everything on their own except things they would have to pick up from you.

 

[XJ92TDI]

Well that's the idea, is trying to find out what the most popular version would be. I know it's not going to appeal to a lot of people, but if even a few people are interested and I can get an idea of what they want, I can start to get an idea of what parts I could get fabbed in larger quantities and what parts would be more of an "option" type of piece, and would add more to the price but also make the swap more simple for the person doing it with just a friend and hand tools in their own garage.

 

[Greg]

Hate to be a negative Nancy, but there's no way you're going to find a TDI, even the older 1.9l TDI, for under $1000. They commonly go for $2000 to $2500, even with high miles. I've been looking for a cheap one for a long time and they don't exist. Much, MUCH more money if you're still planning on using the PD engines.

To keep this in line with your thread, I would love a DIY kit that will bolt the engine to a common, easy to find transmission. A stand-alone wiring harness would be ideal as well.

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

You may also want to perhaps give Acme Adapters up in Oregon a ring, they might have some good advice. They only have two adapters which are Toyota and Suzuki. My friend Luke just came out with his Mercedes 5 cyl kit and is having to price is close to $1G per unit (which is a lot)...

I would gauge interest on www.4BTswaps.com there is a whole VW section and this is where you probably want to sell it...