Hole in the Rock

[cruiseroutfit]

...What's a responsible OHV enthusiast to do when there is a perfectly good 4wd road going to a beautiful, remote destination that several government agencies can not agree on whether it is open or not?

Unfortunetly the land manager in this case maintains it is closed... while the BLM might have some influence, they can't open a road in someone elses jurisdiction. The entire Rincon trail is within the Park

At this point "a responsible OHV enthusiast" would hike down to the lake and run the rest of the trail as such. Further than that, EVERY OHV user in the state should comment on the Rincon when the comment period opens (60 day period opening in the spring). I'll be in contact with the NPS during the process,

 

[Alex]

Further than that, EVERY OHV user in the state should comment on the Rincon when the comment period opens (60 day period opening in the spring).

I'm not in that state but I can't wait to comment! I've gotten lots of practice at it these past few months.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm not in that state but I can't wait to comment! I've gotten lots of practice at it these past few months.

Your absolutely right... I should have said every OHV user in the US

We've all had plenty of RMP experience over the past 6 months, if anything we are getting better at it though. The rec. planner sounded excited to hear from me, I know Rincon is likely the most contested trail in the RMP, gives us a focus

 

[Brett]

Originally Posted by Alex
...What's a responsible OHV enthusiast to do when there is a perfectly good 4wd road going to a beautiful, remote destination that several government agencies can not agree on whether it is open or not?

Haven't you posted pics of your trips there before on NAXJA? I'm pretty sure that I've seen your Jeep before........

 

[Alex]

Haven't you posted pics of your trips there before on NAXJA? I'm pretty sure that I've seen your Jeep before........

Busted, yes I go by Handlebars there.

 

[Brett]

Busted, yes I go by Handlebars there.

Thought so

 

[themaniam1]

If you get to take the some NPS people on the trail and need an average family (four kids ages 20 - 10) to come along and show that it is a family thing not just a hard cord OHV thing, let me know.

Also since it is a US Government issue and not a Utah only, all OHV users should comment when the time comes.

 

[thering]

I'm just going to come out and say that I am really green at this whole political battle with government entities but I must say that I am really wanting to get involved. How would I go about voicing my opinion during this comment period and how do I find out about these meetings and so forth? I realize joining up with U4WDA and such groups is a big step (of which I am in the process) but how else can I get involved? I also have a big group of friends who have the same type of questions? Any guidance would be appreciated....

 

[thering]

Busted, yes I go by Handlebars there.

Welcome Alex,
I am a fellow Land of Enchantment-ite.
I was born and raised in Farmington, NM.
There's some sweet wheelin there.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm just going to come out and say that I am really green at this whole political battle with government entities but I must say that I am really wanting to get involved. How would I go about voicing my opinion during this comment period and how do I find out about these meetings and so forth? I realize joining up with U4WDA and such groups is a big step (of which I am in the process) but how else can I get involved? I also have a big group of friends who have the same type of questions? Any guidance would be appreciated....

Well, at this point its just a wait game... until the NPS is accepting comments, it won't do any good to bombard them, in fact it could do more harm than good. We (U4WDA) will be working on it directly with the BLM in the meantime, rest assured as soon as the 60 day comment period opens, we'll be soliciting comments. I'll likely prepare some "talking points" similar to the other BLM RMP's, and again the U4WDA will submit an official response on behalf of our 1000+ members. I hate to say "wait", I know its not the easy thing to do... but we'll let you know when its go time!

 

[frenchiexj]

I will be going out and running both routes into Hole in the Rock to see the condition of the routes in. I will be pre-running this on March 14th. before EJS. I will have my cell phone on in the evening of the 14th. If you want the information on the trail I will have it at that time. The number is 760-415-7071.

 

[Alex]

I will be going out and running both routes into Hole in the Rock to see the condition of the routes in. I will be pre-running this on March 14th. before EJS. I will have my cell phone on in the evening of the 14th. If you want the information on the trail I will have it at that time. The number is 760-415-7071.

I am very interested in this information as I am taking a group through there in April, I hope you don't mind a call from New Mexico that night! We are planning on rendezvousing at the campsite in Lake Canyon right below the fort, if we could continue the drive through Lake Canyon and up the old bypass it would cut some time off the trip. Lake Canyon is one of the highlights of that trail, it would be a real shame if it became a dead end.

 

[frenchiexj]

Hi Alex,
I also have a house in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. It will be my pleasure to get you any information I get doing the pre-run. The "Fort as it is referred to was a cowboy rock corral. And the first canyon below it is "Iceberg" a arm of Lake Canyon. The area by the Cotton Wood trees would still be a good meeting place and only a 2 mile backtrack if we can not get through the old bypass. I will take GPS way points as well as use orange Surveyors ribbon to mark the route.

 

[Alex]

Thanks Frenchie! I'm glad you said that fort is a corral, I've heard it referred to as a Spanish fort and thought it was rickety for the task. A corral makes muuuch more sense!

I attached a zipped .gpx file with a track for the new bypass, it is a good track and it will plug right into a Garmin GPS using Mapsource. That is the one that OldGeezer offered in the other Hole in the Rock thread. If the track works for you I will have no problem finding my way, and neither should you!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...The "Fort as it is referred to was a cowboy rock corral...

Really? Thats the first time I've heard that? Any idea where you heard it? Any idea when it was constructed? I've never heard of much ranching going on in the area, could have been from the mining interests?

 

[Alex]

Really? Thats the first time I've heard that? Any idea where you heard it? Any idea when it was constructed? I've never heard of much ranching going on in the area, could have been from the mining interests?

Michael R. Kelsey has a series of guidebook on the Canyon Country which have a wealth of information on the history, geology, archeology, cowboy and trail building history of every canyon of any size in the area. Quoting from his Boater's Guide to Lake Powell 2nd Edition, the section on Lake Canyon:

Ever since the Mormons passed through the Pagahrit country, they had cattle grazing there throughout the years. From about 1880 until 1898, the cattle belonged to the Bluff Pool. Then the Mormons sold out to the Scorup brothers, Al and Jim. They ran cattle in the region until about 1965. Al Scorup believed overgrazing in the drought years of the mid 1890's began to damage the range, then more grazing continued early in the 20th century. This lead to the beginning of an erosional cycle, and the eventual breaching of the lake's dam. It was Jim Scorup who witnessed the event. After 3 days of heavy rains, and on November 1, 1915, the water first started to make a cut in the natural dam of the lake and it drained rapidly. Before that day the lake was reported to be about 12 meters deep and nearly one km long.

There is even a photo (or foto as the author calls them) of Lake Pagahrit before the dam washed out. His hike only goes as far as the 4wd road so there is no speculation on the "Spanish Fort".

One of the dominant themes of the 2 books of his I have (Hiking, Biking and Exploring Canyonlands National Park and Vicinity is the other) is how cattle have been run everywhere in that canyon country for a over a century, with only a few exceptions. Two places that come to mind are Jasper Canyon in the Maze and Virginia Park in the Needles, both of which the NPS is trying very hard to keep hikers out of to protect the relic plant communities.

 

[frenchiexj]

This is from extensive reading and meetings with the local ranchers. Up until the last few years they have run cattle and horses in this area. Rounding up cattle took a fair amount of time and as they cleared a area bringing them to a central location. Where they could then transport them out.

The books by David Miller, Stewart Aitchison and the thesis by William LeGrand Black make no mention of this being along the historic trail. Noted in the information from the pioneers by diaries and oral interviews. I have also seen two different documentaries on the trail.

I have been out on the trail with park historians and archeologist from museums. They all said this was to large and poor of construction for a Indian structure. The rumors of Father Escalante even exploring this area have found no positive evidence.

In the years past the road workers (Skelly Oil Company 1958) then the cowboys had a trailers down in the cotton wood trees in Iceberg Canyon. Prior to the trailers, a line shack at the location of the washout in Lake Canyon (this burnt down 15+ years ago). They also had a grub box in Escalante Cave with a old bed springs. I still see a few cows in the area as well as horses. The 2 dead horses from about 6 or 7 years ago on the Skelly Oil Companies road up "Slick Rock Hill" the route we drive up to Gray Mesa. As well as 2 dead cows at the bottom of the "Chute"

I have to be very careful as I can get carried away with the information I have uncovered about the trail and can just keep going own.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...One of the dominant themes of the 2 books of his I have (Hiking, Biking and Exploring Canyonlands National Park and Vicinity is the other) is how cattle have been run everywhere in that canyon country for a over a century, with only a few exceptions. Two places that come to mind are Jasper Canyon in the Maze and Virginia Park in the Needles, both of which the NPS is trying very hard to keep hikers out of to protect the relic plant communities.

I'll have those exact books as well as 3 others regarding the HITR trail proper (Miller, Reay, & Atchinson).... I honestly havn't spent much time in them since I ran the trail in late 06', guess I should freshen up. While I know there were grazing going on the area, I didn't think it was large scale, enough to warrant a rock corral? Guess any operation needs a way to herd them up? There are still cattle grazing near the head of of the canyon that eventuall formed Lake Pagahrit, on the BLM side of the property, we saw a sizeable herd on Greys Mesa near the turnoff to the Rincon too. In fact the only other users on the trail were on horseback, never saw them but we assumed they were checking on the cows...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I have to be very careful as I can get carried away with the information I have uncovered about the trail and can just keep going own.

Don't be careful... post away

I'd be interested to hear about the William LeGrand Black book, thats one I don't have in my collection as of yet. Any idea who the publisher is? ISBN number?

I've seen the documenty the UofU did on the HITR, I'd love to find a copy of it... Do you have either of the documetary's on tape/disc? Any info on the publisher/production company on those?

Lots of great info

 

[frenchiexj]

What I have from William LeGrand Black is a 3 ring binder of 188 pages of photo copy of his thesis, August 1995. Written by hand and hard to read is the name
Please return to;
Tom James
341 So. Main
Mapleton, UT 84664
801-489-7226.
I have not seen Tom in a number of years he was a member of our "Pirate 4X4 Club". This is not related to the "Pirates of the Rubicon". He is up in years if he is still alive. He was leading family trips to "Hole in the Rock" for many years. He was called "Splat man" on the CB.
I see that you are a member of the RR4W also, I’m #33 from way back. If you are going to be at this years associates party I can bring it and let you borrow the book.