.223 "long range" rifle

[mbryson]

Well, my little range fun with the Kahr yesterday was great, but I didn't bring a rifle with me. (bad mistake....I really dig shooting the rifle vs. the pistol) I have A LOT of ammo in the .223 for my AR-15. It's surprisingly accurate for a semi-auto out to the 200-250 yards that I shoot it. I do like the long shots quite a bit.

Here's the question: From what I read/understand I should be good with my AR out to about 600 yards. Would I gain any accuracy for 300-450 yard shots by going to an "off the shelf" bolt action rifle vs. the AR? Or will I just do better with proper shooting technique and consistent rounds with a gun I'm familiar with (my AR)?

 

[Chevycrew]

my buddy shoots a ruger bolt action .223 and it is deadly accurate to 400+

But more than yours? who knows. I would shoot it at the longer ranges and see what kind of groups you get.

 

[Greg]

This is a subject that I'm quite interested in as well, I'll be following along.

I would love to have an AR15 and have been eyeballing a Varmint AR with a 24" bull barrel. I wonder if a simple barrel upgrade would do what you want Marc?

 

[mbryson]

This is a subject that I'm quite interested in as well, I'll be following along.

I would love to have an AR15 and have been eyeballing a Varmint AR with a 24" bull barrel. I wonder if a simple barrel upgrade would do what you want Marc?

I wanted to buy a varmint barrel for it when I bought it, but the "traditional" style barrel I have is quite accurate as it is (I bought the lower in Oct. 2008 and went to buy the upper in mid-Nov. '08--I took whatever upper I could get my hands on. It's a floated standard barrel. Stag brand. It does better than I expected it to. I think the varmint barrel would absorb more recoil energy and keep the muzzle under control more?). Way better to carry around while kicking up bunnies than the varmint barrel.

I think I'm going to save up some plastic milk jugs over the next few weeks and place them filled with water out west at 200, 300 and 400 yards. See how things work out and go from there.

I've always heard the bolt action is more accurate, but when I had my AR bagged sighting in the scope, I was impresed at the groupings when I got the scope where I wanted it.

Oh, and I've already ordered a new trigger setup for the AR. I'm not even sure what I'm getting trigger wise, but my neighbor that's my FFL (well, he's moved so he's not a "neighbor" any longer) told me he ordered me one when I picked up the Kahr. I hope that will help with keeping on target while pulling the trigger? I don't hate my trigger, but it could use a little work.

 

[Unimog]

This is a subject that I'm quite interested in as well, I'll be following along.

X2. I have a few ARs, but I would like to build/buy something much more accurate now and am wondering cost vs accuracy on the different platforms.

 

[mbryson]

X2. I have a few ARs, but I would like to build/buy something much more accurate now and am wondering cost vs accuracy on the different platforms.

Eric, which flavor of AR do you have? I've been super impressed with my gun in the situations I've put it. I just wonder if I've been using it in the situations that its ideal for and I'll be putting it into situations where it's going to be lacking?

My gun is a Stag and is pretty nicely crafted when I've compared it to other ARs I shoot with. (compared to Colt, Bushmaster, Rock River and some other cheaper "off" brand that wasn't that impressive--can't remember the name)

 

[muleskinner]

I have a Rock River with an 18'' stainless bull barrel. I have only shot mine (on paper) out to 300 Yards, but you would have to look pretty hard to find a bolt action rifle that would out shoot it right out of the box.

This is mine, but mine has the shorter barrel and a Leopold VXIII 4.5X14 scope on it.

I have always thought that bolt action rifles were the only way to go for accuracy, but I no longer believe that.

If you want to shoot mine just give me a call. I'm not sure where you shoot, but we can go shoot about a 1/4 mile from my house if you want to come out here. We can shoot any yardage you want (I'll even throw in some tannerite to shoot if you want)

 

[mbryson]

...I have always thought that bolt action rifles were the only way to go for accuracy, but I no longer believe that.

If you want to shoot mine just give me a call. I'm not sure where you shoot, but we can go shoot about a 1/4 mile from my house if you want to come out here. We can shoot any yardage you want (I'll even throw in some tannerite to shoot if you want)

How about on the way home from Five Mile next Sat.? Tannerite is very fun

(and I probably don't normally shoot more than 10 miles from where you are?)

 

[bobmed]

I had a AR with a 24" match barrel that was very accurate.
The thing that caused the biggest problem was the wind drift with the lighter bullets. 1-9 twist in the rifling would work for heavier bullets but the overall length has to be right to fit the magazine and work with the semi auto.

There is a sled that replaces the magazine to make it easier to fire long loads single shot if you don't mind having a single shot semi auto.

They sell one at Midway that works pretty good.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=196189

 

[muleskinner]

How about on the way home from Five Mile next Sat.? Tannerite is very fun

(and I probably don't normally shoot more than 10 miles from where you are?)

I leave next Sat. for a L.E. Elk hunt. I should be back in a week or two.

 

[DAA]

Here's the question: From what I read/understand I should be good with my AR out to about 600 yards. Would I gain any accuracy for 300-450 yard shots by going to an "off the shelf" bolt action rifle vs. the AR?

That would depend on the particular AR and the particular bolt gun. It would also depend to some degree, on exactly how you are doing the shooting - off a bench, off hand, prone, other? AR's don't lend themselves well to any form of precision bench rest style shooting, but do lend themselves well to many other forms of field and target shooting. Bolt guns can do well in just about any discipline.

Bolt action designs do have greater inherent pure accuracy potential. That is not even debatable (never ending debates on the 'net not withstanding...). And if you doubt that, try and find any world records for precision accuracy that aren't held by bolt action rifles. You won't find any. No bench rest match has ever been won by any semi-auto.

That said... A well put together AR IS capable of excellent accuracy. Many AR's will out shoot many off the shelf factory bolt guns. I've seen a handful of genuine sub .5 MOA AR's. Genuine sub .5 MOA factory bolt guns are rare (again, rampant claims on the 'net of Savages shooting 1/4" groups "all day long" not withstanding...).

But, if all you are talking about, is potting milk jug sized targets out to 400 yards, you really aren't talking about "accuracy". Anything shooting about MOA or better will do. And any reasonably accurate AR and darn near any off the shelf bolt gun will be more than capable of that. It sounds like the AR you already have should be more than up to the task.

Don't let me talk you out of a new rifle though! If you think you need a new bolt gun to play with at 600 yards, then by gawd you ought to have one!

If you decide to buy one though, for this particular purpose, do pay attention to what was said earlier about twist rate and the ability to stabilize longer (heavier) bullets. At 600, it becomes less about the rifle and much more about your ability to read conditions (dope the wind). Longer, heavier bullets with higher B.C.'s confer a distinct advantage in this realm. AR's typically come in faster twists (8 and 9 being most common) to stabilize longer bullets, but most factory bolt action .223's have 12, or even 14 twists. There are some factory bolt .223's with fast twist barrels too, just make sure you know what you want and know what you are getting.

- DAA

 

[bobmed]

One other thing with twist rate is that the light thin jacketed varmint bullets in a fast twist barrel can disintegrate from centrifugal force. With high velocity and fast twist you get a little gray puff in the air and nothing hits the target

 

[78mitsu]

I recently picked up a .220 swift with a bull barrel. Long flat trajectory makes 4200-4500fps muzzle velocity. I've paper plates with 20 rounds at 500yds. If you want to reach out with a small caliber, It's a great cartridge.

 

[mbryson]

I had a AR with a 24" match barrel that was very accurate.
The thing that caused the biggest problem was the wind drift with the lighter bullets. 1-9 twist in the rifling would work for heavier bullets but the overall length has to be right to fit the magazine and work with the semi auto.

There is a sled that replaces the magazine to make it easier to fire long loads single shot if you don't mind having a single shot semi auto.

They sell one at Midway that works pretty good.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=196189

Mine's a 1:9. (had to go check, but that's what I did remember)

I leave next Sat. for a L.E. Elk hunt. I should be back in a week or two.

Good luck on the hunt. Sounds like we should have an RME shoot off (I'll volunteer to lose) when you get back?

That would depend on the particular AR and the particular bolt gun. It would also depend to some degree, on exactly how you are doing the shooting - off a bench, off hand, prone, other? AR's don't lend themselves well to any form of precision bench rest style shooting, but do lend themselves well to many other forms of field and target shooting. Bolt guns can do well in just about any discipline.

Bolt action designs do have greater inherent pure accuracy potential. That is not even debatable (never ending debates on the 'net not withstanding...). And if you doubt that, try and find any world records for precision accuracy that aren't held by bolt action rifles. You won't find any. No bench rest match has ever been won by any semi-auto.

That said... A well put together AR IS capable of excellent accuracy. Many AR's will out shoot many off the shelf factory bolt guns. I've seen a handful of genuine sub .5 MOA AR's. Genuine sub .5 MOA factory bolt guns are rare (again, rampant claims on the 'net of Savages shooting 1/4" groups "all day long" not withstanding...).

But, if all you are talking about, is potting milk jug sized targets out to 400 yards, you really aren't talking about "accuracy". Anything shooting about MOA or better will do. And any reasonably accurate AR and darn near any off the shelf bolt gun will be more than capable of that. It sounds like the AR you already have should be more than up to the task.

Don't let me talk you out of a new rifle though! If you think you need a new bolt gun to play with at 600 yards, then by gawd you ought to have one!

If you decide to buy one though, for this particular purpose, do pay attention to what was said earlier about twist rate and the ability to stabilize longer (heavier) bullets. At 600, it becomes less about the rifle and much more about your ability to read conditions (dope the wind). Longer, heavier bullets with higher B.C.'s confer a distinct advantage in this realm. AR's typically come in faster twists (8 and 9 being most common) to stabilize longer bullets, but most factory bolt action .223's have 12, or even 14 twists. There are some factory bolt .223's with fast twist barrels too, just make sure you know what you want and know what you are getting.

- DAA

I hoped you'd chime in. I was looking at the Savage "varminter" or something line (there's the "edge" and "hunter" line as well?) and the Remington 770 series. If I do like this like I think I will, I've been looking at similar guns chambered in .308 or 30.06 (kind of a "family" round--I've got a gun I really trust/like but it's a 1960-something JC Higgins bolt 30.06. I'd have to steal that from my dad, but he'll never look at it again, I doubt? I'm super confident with that ugly old thing, but it's not much to look at) but I'm trying to establish a "need" for one.

I really DON'T know what I want is the problem. Like Bob alludes to above, sometimes you can want something that just won't function as intended. I think the longer range you go, the more skill is involved in the shooter but you'll still need a piece of equipment that can do the job. I thought I'd start at 300-450 yard shots, develop some bad habits and curse them as I tried to move further and further out.

Oh and the milk jugs are just out there for the visual impact. I'd throw some paper (maybe a big piece of butcher paper or something on a 4x8 plywood sheet would be good? ---maybe that's when I'm going way out?) down so I could hopefully get some pattern/consistency. I was going to go out today, but it seemed a wee bit windy for a rookie like me.

 

[lewis]

I bought a mini 14 hoping to be somewhat accurate on the long range but have read that it is far from being very accurate. Still need to give a try though.

 

[bobmed]

The 30-06 is a very versatile rifle.
There are bullet weights available from 100 to 220 grains.
The same bullets also work in the .308 Winchester loads.
The .308 is the round used in the M24 sniper rifle.

 

[bobmed]

Two of the most accurate rifles I've had.
The AR-15 with a Bushmaster .223 V-Match 24" barrel
and a Remington 700LTR in .308

 

[mbryson]

The 30-06 is a very versatile rifle.
There are bullet weights available from 100 to 220 grains.
The same bullets also work in the .308 Winchester loads.
The .308 is the round used in the M24 sniper rifle.

220 grain

How far is that beast effective to from a 30-06? I use a 250 someodd grain (I'll have to check?) in my .50 cal. muzzle loader with 100-150 grains behind it. That's about 1200 fps or something if I remember right?

 

[mbryson]

Two of the most accurate rifles I've had.
The AR-15 with a Bushmaster .223 V-Match 24" barrel
and a Remington 700LTR in .308

LOVE the .308. What's a good amateur range with that thing? 500-600 yards? I'd assume it starts to lose velocity around 1000ish yards as those are somewhat midrange weapons for military snipers? (that's a hella long shot if you think about it)

 

[DAA]

Not knowing what you really want it pretty normal. Heck, that's pretty much how I ended up with so many rifles .

The '06 used to win a lot of 1,000 yard matches, way back in the day. Great hunting round. The old war horse can do just about anything you want it to do. It uses a lot of powder and has a bit of recoil for doing a lot of informal target work though. The .308 as Bob just said, uses the same bullets, but is easier on the shoulder and pocket book, most guys feel it has an accuracy edge over the '06 too. For what I "think" it sounds like you are leaning towards, the .308 might be a more practical choice. Put it this way, I'd bet you'll be able to shoot it better, due to the lesser recoil, if nothing else. Bolt guns chambered in .308 are usually short actions, too, while the '06 is always in a long action. The short action is more rigid and has more inherent accuracy potential.

Really though... If this is primarily for target work at distances over 400 yards, I'd suggest the .260. Same case as the .308, just a smaller diameter, ligher bullet. But, while the bullets may be lighter (and therefore less recoil yet), they have greater sectional density and B.C. That is to say, the heavy for caliber .260 bullets cut the wind exceptionally well. An awful lot of long range matches today are being won with .260's or custom 6.5 wildcats of similar capacity. One of my personal favorite long range rigs is a 6.5/284, which uses the same bullets as the .260 but has the powder capacity of the '06, but fits in a short action. Quite a bit of recoil and a lot of muzzle blast though, and it chews through barrels in a hurry too.

Nothing wrong with a .243 either. Or, for that matter, for economy, recoil, barrel life, easy shooting, that old .223 still ain't no slouch. It won't run with the larger calibers for wind cutting, but with 69 to 80 gr. bullets, it's not too bad either. I do like the .22-250 and the .220 Swift as well. I've worn out three factory .22-250 barrels and two custom .22-250AI barrels, to give you an idea just how much I like those cases. But, in a factory rifle, there aren't many fast twist options for these bigger .224 cases. Savage does make a 9 twist .22-250, but, for reasons that would take me too long to explain right now, for what you are looking to do, I'd stick with the .223 if you want a fast twist .224 caliber. Both of those custom .22-250AI barrels I wore out, were 8 twists, so I do offer that advice from real life experience.

That Savage you are looking at would be hard to beat for cost vs. out of the box accuracy potential. I prefer Rem. 700's myself, but, factory rifles are nothing but organ donors to me, I don't really concern myself with "out of the box" potential. Mainly, I like the physical size and the trigger options for the 700's better. But, if I were looking to buy a factory rifle to shoot more or less "as is", especially for the kind of shooting you are talking about, I'd be looking at a Savage.

A picture of a couple of my more accurate rifles, just for grins:

The one with the dragon painted on it is chambered in .22BR, the laminated stock in .243AI. They'll both put five shots on a dime at 100 yards, or into a clay pigeon at 500 yards pretty regularly.

You know what though? I really think that AR you've got will do just fine at 400 yards!

- DAA