Land Use for Idiots…?

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
I have been thinking about this for a while now so I will spew my thought out here for the 4x4 community to look upon.

Lets focus on what can be done to fill a gaping hole in the current Land Use battle, that hole being that there is no clear and concise place to find the basics for how to help fight the land use battle and what the battle is really all about.

The general public is used to having everything spelled out for them or does not have the time it takes to figure out all of the ins and outs being a proper steward of the land, or we are just too lazy / don’t know that we should care because the organizations that are out there have failed to get us involved for one reason or another.


– I don’t mean ‘hey join U4 or BRC etc’ that doesn’t do anything but have people give money to an organization that they really don’t know what they are doing (can you say easterners and giving $$ to SUWA).

What I mean is a Land use for dummies article/pamphlet. Something that covers at least the following
- Basics of staying on the trail – There are plenty of threads on the interweb where some douche canoe drives right past the sign that says road closed because they see that obviously the road has been washed out but some other paddlers have forded the river 15 feet upstream so the sign must be wrong… -- just saying “use leave no trace ethics” doesn’t cut it as that assumes that said user is willing to go and read what leave no trace is, lets get some specifics out there.

- What to expect from the land use organizations that are out there and who they are. – and I really mean what to expect not what they are providing now, IE Updates on current closures, what volunteer positions are available (not just join the board specific positions or jobs that need to be fulfilled) and updates on the progress of these tasks etc, what the org is doing with your donation $$, I am sure there is more but you see the point here.

- how the political process works for the current land issues, and where the user plays a part in this.

Yes there is probably more and I am sure that whoever decides to tackle a project like this would see many other items that may need to be incorporated but this would surely get the ball rolling and help people understand what is going on. I would say that having something like this available to john Q public would help bring more $$ and volunteers to the land use battle and would also help keep the land use orgzzz in line with what they should be doing as they would have a constituency that would be at least partially educated as to what to expect from them.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Tread Lightly and their pamphlets cover much of this, in fact everything a land-use 'newbie' should know really. Obviously they don't have updates on other land-use orgs.

Sitting through a Tread Lightly course will answer all of these and leave you with some take-homes to study up. Curt Hall and I hosted a TL class last year the night before NPLD that didn't get much interest. However I'd be willing to do it again this year if interest warrants.
 
Tread Lightly does have some good material.

Even an online course to raise awareness:

http://www.treadlightly.org/page.php/education-onlinecourse/Online-Awareness-Course

And NOHVCC is an awesome group with a lot of cool info and information:

http://www.nohvcc.org/

They have (or had?) a cool DVD recently. I've got copies somewhere.

All that stuff is great. These are great resources that would be good tools for educating and informing users here in Utah. I think the examples given by TooeleCherokee point to a more localized and concise version for the stuff in Utah. Even having current events information would be good to keep the public involved.

Great project for __________.
 
United Four Wheel Drive Associations (when they were UFWDA, instead of whatever they are now) made a "Public Land Users Guide" filled with tons of information including a lot of technical advice on the legal instruments of protecting access. It became outdated quickly and it had been done on a typewriter so there weren't any opportunities to make additional copies or updates (apparently). (199? Sometime)

I wrote all this for USA-ALL: (2007)

http://www.usaall.org/?library.htm

The intention was to build on that with more practical advice in brief format.

BRC has some information here: (2001-200?)

http://www.sharetrails.org/public-lands/

None of it seems topical enough, and none of it takes a user from green (newb) to informed in one program or resource.

Would be nice to ____________________.
 
Last edited:

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
Tread Lightly and their pamphlets cover much of this, in fact everything a land-use 'newbie' should know really. Obviously they don't have updates on other land-use orgs.

Sitting through a Tread Lightly course will answer all of these and leave you with some take-homes to study up. Curt Hall and I hosted a TL class last year the night before NPLD that didn't get much interest. However I'd be willing to do it again this year if interest warrants.

While I agree that tread lightly has a good list of how to stay on the trail etiquette and while I appreciate your offer to host a class -that is not a solution to the gaping hole but a patch to say that 'we' are doing something while it only impacts very few people. if that is the only way for people to learn then we should just hand over the keys to our rigs to SUWA now because there is no way that you and Kurt Hall can get everyone needed who is a noob to attend a class so that they can go search some more.

again we are talking land use for dummies here - if something is more than 3 clicks deep on a webpage or you have to go to more than one website to get the information unless the person is already interested they are not going to go search for it.. this information needs to be in a single consolidated and concise place. a used car salesman doesn't send you to his competitors lot so you can learn about the car he is selling - the way I see it our land use orgs should be selling the land use battle not making it a cluster Fork for the noobs
 
Last edited:

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
While I agree that tread lightly has a good list of how to stay on the trail etiquette

again we are talking land use for dummies here - if something is more than 3 clicks deep on a webpage or you have to go to more than one website to get the information unless the person is already interested they are not going to go search for it.. this information needs to be in a single consolidated and concise place. a used car salesman doesn't send you to his competitors lot so you can learn about the car he is selling - the way I see it our land use orgs should be selling the land use battle not making it a cluster Fork for the noobs

I too would love to see such a 'one stop shop' but I have little faith that someone too lazy to follow 3 clicks on an established site like TL will make one click and actually read on another. There are two basic types of land-use abusers as I see it... uninformed and flagrant. The uninformed can theoretically be brought to speed with their actions, sadly they are the minority to the flagrant whom already know to stay on the trail, follow signs or stay out of Forest Lake but choose to anyway. You may be able to convert a few when they realize the outcome their actions have, but the majority will continue to recreate as they have for years. Fwiw this is all stuff the TL classes cover in depth.

Of bigger concern is the 'disconnect' that some user segments have. I theorize that 4x4 owners are only 1 person disconnected from a major club, association or website such as RME. So they might not be on here, but they likely have a freind that is. However dirtbike and ATV owners are more like 2 or 3 people removed from a land use group or club, so many of them have never even heard of UTMA or Usa-All or BRC. Its not ignorance on their part rather the nature of the sport. A family can own a trailer full of quads and never need to worry about a trail-ride or convention to have fun, they just keep it amongst their existing circle of friends. Add to that rentals, higher turnover amongst ATV/UTV owners and getting the education message to all of them is that much harder. ATV/dirtbike owners don't think I'm pointing a finger, just highlighting a scenario that I believe is easily proved. My wife and I ride dirt bikes, yet have never rode with a club, a convention, a safari, etc. In fact I never hear of them but for my connections in the 4x4 world. On the flip side there are members of the UTMA that might own 4x4's too and say "I've never heard of an event sans EJS".

Finding a way to share this 'one stop message' becomes the issue.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...that is not a solution to the gaping hole but a patch to say that 'we' are doing something while it only impacts very few people. if that is the only way for people to learn then we should just hand over the keys to our rigs to SUWA now because there is no way that you and Kurt Hall can get everyone needed who is a noob to attend a class so that they can go search some more....

And that is a combination of apathy and user disconnect (described earlier) at work. See Curt Hall and I are not the only Tread Lightly Trainers, in fact there are dozens of them including several other RME members in Utah. And anyone can become a Tread Trainer... the pyramid effect in the works. Its not ideal but its the best intro classes out there imo. For example the PG Ranger District (AF Canyon rangers) all took the class the same day Curt and I did.

You have to realize there are some that simply don't want to be educated or told how they can recreate. Be it the guy in the middle of Forest Lake, the guy blazing off the trail or the EJS goers that dodge the 'land use corner' like its cancer or swing by and say 'glad somebody is fighting those guys' yet don't have a dollar to spare. You build a website and they'll close it down the first time you tell them what they can or can't do. If common sense can't prevail I have less faith a single website can. That said its absolutely worth a try, we know it won't reach all but it can be considered a success even if it just meets a few.
 
Last edited:

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
Of bigger concern is the 'disconnect' that some user segments have. I theorize that 4x4 owners are only 1 person disconnected from a major club, association or website such as RME. So they might not be on here, but they likely have a freind that is. However dirtbike and ATV owners are more like 2 or 3 people removed from a land use group or club, so many of them have never even heard of UTMA or Usa-All or BRC. Its not ignorance on their part rather the nature of the sport. A family can own a trailer full of quads and never need to worry about a trail-ride or convention to have fun, they just keep it amongst their existing circle of friends. Add to that rentals, higher turnover amongst ATV/UTV owners and getting the education message to all of them is that much harder. ATV/dirtbike owners don't think I'm pointing a finger, just highlighting a scenario that I believe is easily proved. My wife and I ride dirt bikes, yet have never rode with a club, a convention, a safari, etc. In fact I never hear of them but for my connections in the 4x4 world. On the flip side there are members of the UTMA that might own 4x4's too and say "I've never heard of an event sans EJS".

Finding a way to share this 'one stop message' becomes the issue.

Kurt has hit on an important point here and I have mentioned it before........Users need to be a center of influence to others they associate with. Get them involved with a club, a work project, writing a comment, etc. Keeping trails open is like pulling a great big cart. With only a few people doing it, it is a ton of work and results in resources and man power being spread to thin. The more people there are to pull the cart, the lighter the work is going to be.

The people who recreate but choose to not be involved or do not know how to be involved are all riding in the wagon that we are pulling. I was one of them until a friend got me out of the wagon and showed me how to pull it. It was not an organization, a website or anything else that got me out......it was him being a center of influence and educating me on the importance.

Start by pulling the wagon and then get others out of it to pull.
 

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
The people who recreate but...do not know how to be involved are all riding in the wagon that we are pulling. I was one of them until a friend got me out of the wagon and showed me how to pull it. It was not an organization, a website or anything else that got me out......it was him being a center of influence and educating me on the importance.

Start by pulling the wagon and then get others out of it to pull.

well wouldn't it be nice if those who may want out of said wagon but didn't know how to get out and are just a little lazy could find in one place the basics that would sell them on why it is better to pull the wagon than to ride in it? I mean if the person is already so lazy and getting a free ride anyhow why get out and pull..

Maybe this needs to be looked at more as marketing.. anyhow I figured that I would throw out the idea as it is something that is not out there and what the current land use orgs are doing sure as hell isn't getting people involved.
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
well wouldn't it be nice if those who may want out of said wagon but didn't know how to get out and are just a little lazy could find in one place the basics that would sell them on why it is better to pull the wagon than to ride in it? I mean if the person is already so lazy and getting a free ride anyhow why get out and pull..

I guess I kind of look at this like I do my business. There is nothing I can do to cure a lazy employee......believe me, I have tried. A lazy person may get motivated for a short period of time, but rarely does it last. I can fire an employee and find a better one. The problem is we can not take a lazy persons 4 wheel drive, atv or motorcycle away.

People are what is going to make the difference, not a website. A website is a resource, but only to those who want the information. Don't get me wrong, information is vital to this, but people are what is going to make the difference. I think if you took a close look at what has caused individuals to get involved it boils down to 2 things. First is a person like Kurt who has a passion for access and shares that with people which in turn gets them involved. Secondly, a closure to your favorite trail that makes you decide to get involved.

I am involved because of someone like Kurt who has been involved with Land access for over 25 years.


Maybe this needs to be looked at more as marketing.. anyhow I figured that I would throw out the idea as it is something that is not out there and what the current land use orgs are doing sure as hell isn't getting people involved.


I think there are some good ideas coming out of this conversation. A good point was made with the idea to have a "independant" site like the stay the trail site. It is not specific to one group or organization.
 

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
I guess I kind of look at this like I do my business. There is nothing I can do to cure a lazy employee......believe me, I have tried. A lazy person may get motivated for a short period of time, but rarely does it last. I can fire an employee and find a better one. The problem is we can not take a lazy persons 4 wheel drive, atv or motorcycle away.

Thats right.. you can't cure a lazy person.. but you can pander to them in order to reach the goal that you want to reach and that is to keep trails open.. turn them into a motivated lazy person.. and I would rather have 1 million lazy people motivated for a short period of time than 1 non lazy person motivated until the end of days.

First is a person like Kurt who has a passion for access and shares that with people which in turn gets them involved.

I would agree... but how are you going to sell your product (the land use battle) to those who don't have a friend already involved? IE the kid that just got his first Jeep and wants to go - Tear it up


Secondly, a closure to your favorite trail that makes you decide to get involved.

I seriously hope that the land use orgs are not using this as a tool to get people involved.. for if they are it seems as though statistically by the time you got enough people involved due to them being pissed off that their trail got closed we would be out of trails :hickey:

People are what is going to make the difference, not a website

I have never once referenced a website.. I am referring to having information in whatever format that is easiest to disseminate to the public but still give them enough information to be a useful
 
Last edited:

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
I would agree... but how are you going to sell your product (the land use battle) to those who don't have a friend already involved? IE the kid that just got his first Jeep and wants to go - Tear it up

That kid that just got his first Jeep and wants to go and tear it up is not going to be seeking out any information. He is just going to go and do it and that falls under the catagory of uninformed and ignorant users. My answer is still that people need to be a center of influence. There are a lot of people on this board that will take the time to talk to people that they meet on the trail. I know there are people on this board that will go up to somebody on the trail if they see them doing something wrong and educate them on what they are doing.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Scott, great thoughts for sure! Paul and I spoke on the phone just a bit ago and were really glad you started this thread. We've had so many land-use threads but all too often they highlight the problem rather than offering some ideas like this one does.
 

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
That kid that just got his first Jeep and wants to go and tear it up is not going to be seeking out any information. He is just going to go and do it and that falls under the catagory of uninformed and ignorant users. My answer is still that people need to be a center of influence. There are a lot of people on this board that will take the time to talk to people that they meet on the trail. I know there are people on this board that will go up to somebody on the trail if they see them doing something wrong and educate them on what they are doing.

So Joe knowledgeable stops Kid Noob on the trail and respectfully tells him that he shouldn't drive off the trail. Joe also tells kid about the huge land use battle going on and how he should get involved. Kid Noob is interested as he doesn't want to loose the ability to do his new sport so he asks what he should do. Joe tells Kid to go and Join U4WDA and blue ribbon etc and read up on it. Kid goes home and after about 20 minutes of skimming U4's website pays his $10 and decides that he is now part of the land use battle.. YAY.. Kid Noob is now a part of the land use battle but still has no clue what he is doing..
Lets say that Kid noob for example someone who has been on this board since 2008 with 890 posts- said at one time that he is a member of U4WDA and still just recently drove through a river just after passing a Road Closed sign and didn't think he was doing anything wrong... I would say that with 2 years of being 'part of the community' that the message is not getting out there using the above quoted method to educate users.
 

DOSS

Poker of the Hornets Nest
Location
Suncrest
Scott, great thoughts for sure! Paul and I spoke on the phone just a bit ago and were really glad you started this thread. We've had so many land-use threads but all too often they highlight the problem rather than offering some ideas like this one does.

Thanks.. I just want to see some change :).. I will try to stay positive but I also think that there are some flaws in the current system and want to point them out as we work toward a solution to getting people involved.. I really think that we need to take some leads from unfortunately SUWA on getting the job done and getting information out there...
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
So Joe knowledgeable stops Kid Noob on the trail and respectfully tells him that he shouldn't drive off the trail. Joe also tells kid about the huge land use battle going on and how he should get involved. Kid Noob is interested as he doesn't want to loose the ability to do his new sport so he asks what he should do. Joe tells Kid to go and Join U4WDA and blue ribbon etc and read up on it. Kid goes home and after about 20 minutes of skimming U4's website pays his $10 and decides that he is now part of the land use battle.. YAY.. Kid Noob is now a part of the land use battle but still has no clue what he is doing.


This is part of what Kurt & I discussed on the phone and I think he has some great ideas to accomplish this.

Lets say that Kid noob for example someone who has been on this board since 2008 with 890 posts- said at one time that he is a member of U4WDA and still just recently drove through a river just after passing a Road Closed sign and didn't think he was doing anything wrong... I would say that with 2 years of being 'part of the community' that the message is not getting out there using the above quoted method to educate users.

That falls into this catagory that Kurt described earlier.

cruiseroutfit said:
sadly they are the minority to the flagrant whom already know to stay on the trail, follow signs or stay out of Forest Lake but choose to anyway. You may be able to convert a few when they realize the outcome their actions have, but the majority will continue to recreate as they have for years. Fwiw this is all stuff the TL classes cover in depth.
 

SAMI

Formerly Beardy McGee
Location
SLC, UT
So a lot of good ideas here. Who can make a web page to cater to this? A landing page that simply spells it all out for the truly ignorant.. Add some links from there for a deeper learning and education.. Links to downloadable pamphlets to keep in your door pocket or glove box.. Links to land use history in the Utah region (articles, websites, definitions page)...

I agree.. There has been more and more of a disconnect in this state for a few years now. I'll be the first to volunteer in information gathering/editing for such a website.. But I have zero skills to build the website.
 

Taco4life

Registered User
Location
Bountiful
Is there a possibility that we could work to get some of the tread lightly pamphlets or another small (short and to the point) source of information distributed to those who register their vehicles as an OHV. Something similar to when I register for the hunt I somehow end up getting mail and phone calls from the NRA. We could see about including this information when anyone registers there said vehicle. For instance Mr. Brown has four ATV's and a dirt bike that he constantly recreates with. Each year he has to register it, let's say that this year in July when he goes to renew his registration he is given a short informative piece of paper about trail etiquette and the issues surrounding land use. Then a link and contact information on the bottom to get involved. This would be a way to reach a greater majority of people who use the trails and aren't involved in a club.
 
Top