Land Use for Idiots…?

[SAMI]

^ Seems like a no-brainer idea huh? I know it's been brought up in the past.. It begs the question of, 'why has something like that not occured yet?'

I know the U4 has had pamplets at some dealerships, but that's a small fraction (0.00001%) of land users that make it into that dealership to look at a Jeep.. Then only 0.0001% of the 0.00001% actually pick up the pamplet on the counter.. Probably about 0.0001% of the 0.0001% that picked it up might actually read it... 0.001% might actually sign up for something.. You get where i'm going here?

Getting the education out to the atv's & single track guys would be awesome, and as mentioned, easily done by sending them info at the time of registration.

 

[DOSS]

^ Seems like a no-brainer idea huh? I know it's been brought up in the past.. It begs the question of, 'why has something like that not occured yet?'

Don't get Steve started.. Thanks Steve for keeping this one positive

That is a good idea and should be on the plate of our land use organizations if it is not already. That said I think that our land use orgs have failed to follow through with some of their charter due to a failure on the part of their members to know what to hold them accountable for.. Yep it is circular logic if you keep following it but it has to stop somewhere..

As a boss if I told my people I would do X if they did Y as an incentive.. if for some reason I forget about X and they get Y done but don't help me remember it is my fault for forgetting X but also the fault of my employee for not reminding me (we are all human). The thing is we have to have X and Y clearly spelled out somewhere so that we have our expectations set at the same level.

I know the U4 has had pamplets at some dealerships, but that's a small fraction (0.00001%) of land users that make it into that dealership to look at a Jeep.. Then only 0.0001% of the 0.00001% actually pick up the pamplet on the counter.. Probably about 0.0001% of the 0.0001% that picked it up might actually read it... 0.001% might actually sign up for something.. You get where i'm going here?

what is said in these pamphlets? and what is their intended purpose?-- education or to get members of U4

 

[SAMI]

I agree with your analogy.

I can't remember 100% what was on the pamphlets.. I'm pretty sure it was off-road pointers and etiquette - much like Tread Lightly type stuff. It was a general informational item to be able to hand folks on the trail or wherever to give them some quick references, ohv responsibility, and links/emails to orgs?

 

[Kevin B.]

I'm just getting into backroading/offroading, but I've been a low-impact outdoorsman my whole life. The best way I've found to bring folks around is peer pressure. That pamphlet at the dealership or the blurb on the website may hook a fish or two, but it takes shame to get the truly unmotivated to consider respectful access. The fellow who doesn't give two fistfuls of crap about that candy bar wrapper (or trail damage) because he's never coming this way again suddenly gets awful concerned if you make it clear that you're looking down on him for littering (or ignoring closed signs). You can get a lot of leverage when you're standing on the moral high ground.

I dig this thread, by the way, and empathise with Tooele's frustration.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Let me sum up the reason these ideas (which most are not new per say) have not happened. Manpower & money. U4, most of Usa-All, etc are all 100% volunteer. If someone were to volunteer to handle the mailings, donate the cash to by DMV records, donate the money to hire a staffer to handle this, etc... it would easily be done.

 

[jackjoh]

I am prejudiced but I think the direction U4 is going again after slipping for over a year is the right way to go. I may be speaking for them but guys like Kurt and Steve J. got burned out because they were doing just about everything themselves because people would talk (like in this thread) but when it came to doing something they were just all talk. Volunteers will not get the job done. I was active with Cal 4 for about 20 years and I think they are just now starting to make some impact but it has taken a long time and many failures to get there. My suggestion is to come to the U4 meeting this Thursday 6:30 PM at Larry Miller Jeep with your suggestions, enthusiasm, and hopefully ready to take on some responsibility. Listen to the plans U4 has for changing its goals and decide if you want to do something more than talk and be a part of the new U4.

 

[DOSS]

Manpower & money.

That is a big reason for things to fail to get done... Now how do you get Manpower and Money? you do things to get people involved, but that takes manpower and money... ohhh the circular logic is coming back to haunt this thread.. where will it end.

Tangent ALERT -What needs to be done to change the focus from why we can't do X to how do we make X work? I constantly see the reasons nothing gets done and excuses to why so and so didn't do their job etc. I think everyone knows that X Y and Z are not getting done so why not focus back on how to make A B and C work. - this probably needs a thread of its own

 

[DOSS]

I am prejudiced but I think the direction U4 is going again after slipping for over a year is the right way to go. I may be speaking for them but guys like Kurt and Steve J. got burned out because they were doing just about everything themselves because people would talk (like in this thread) but when it came to doing something they were just all talk. Volunteers will not get the job done.

I was active with Cal 4 for about 20 years and I think they are just now starting to make some impact but it has taken a long time and many failures to get there. My suggestion is to come to the U4 meeting this Thursday 6:30 PM at Larry Miller Jeep with your suggestions, enthusiasm, and hopefully ready to take on some responsibility. Listen to the plans U4 has for changing its goals and decide if you want to do something more than talk and be a part of the new U4.

Taking back my comments that I had made but I will say that I feel that it is rather lame to try to kill a thread full of good ideas... what I take from your comments is stop talking.... fall in line and join U4 and or shut up... anyhow back to our regularly scheduled dialogue

 

[Skylinerider]

Volunteers will not get the job done.

I disagree Jack. I've been to lots of U4 meetings, and heard the same cop out every time, Even the best volunteer needs direction and input from those in authority to make decisions i.e. the BOD. Put a member of the BOD in charge of education, and then let them ask for volunteers to help with specific tasks.

To get back on topic, I've said it for a long time, education is key. U4, UTMA, whoever else, needs to have an education component to it, not only about how to write letters, but about how minimize impact, stay on trail, etc. Hell, maybe even have a workshop at the U4 conventions, but heaven forbid education get in the way of having a good time. Treadlightly does a great job, and all an organization needs to do is contact them and they'll send phamplets etc.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I may be speaking for them but guys like Kurt and Steve J. got burned out because they were doing just about everything themselves because people would talk...

For the record Jack, I didn't so much get burned out. Rather my vision and goals started swaying from those of U4's and when the majority rules there is no point being the stick in the mud (ie Steve Jackson ). I suggested every U4 BOD member become a Tread Lightly Trainer, I suggested U4 have a land use committee rather than a raffle, I suggested we can runs/conventions until the core basics were being run. Many felt that U4's primary purpose was to promote recreation, gather money to donate to others and lastly be involved with land use. My ideals were the same just opposite. Add to that a fleet of infidels that wanted nothing more than to oust those that had done the most and reprieve those that were anchors... and it simply wasn't worth sticking around for. At that point I became a Tread Trainer myself and have now done 4 classroom sessions, I find its 10x the efficiency with my personal time.

Paul and I talked about this a bit today. What is U4's real mission? What is Usa-All's? What are the members clubs for? In an extremely dumbed down and basic form, this is it imo.

BRC:- National legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
Usa-All:- Local legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
U4WDA: On the ground actions. Service projects, education, club training, broadcasting the needs of Usa-All & BRC to its member clubs. Require clubs to be members of Usa-All & BRC, tie it into dues.
Member Clubs: Rides, education, hats, jackets, newsletters, raffles, etc. Require membership in U4WDA
Individuals: Join a club and promote responsible use amongst fellow travelers.


We've been through much of this before:
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=65931

That is a big reason for things to fail to get done... Now how do you get Manpower and Money? you do things to get people involved, but that takes manpower and money... ohhh the circular logic is coming back to haunt this thread.. where will it end.

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[jackjoh]

BRC:- National legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
Usa-All:- Local legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
U4WDA: On the ground actions. Service projects, education, club training, broadcasting the needs of Usa-All & BRC to its member clubs. Require clubs to be members of Usa-All & BRC, tie it into dues.
Member Clubs: Rides, education, hats, jackets, newsletters, raffles, etc. Require membership in U4WDA
Individuals: Join a club and promote responsible use amongst fellow travelers.

This is where I think we are going.

 

[jackjoh]

I did not mean to kill the thread if that is what happened. No one showed up at the U4 meeting to express the ideas in this thread and hopefully volunteer to help. I think that is because of the low opinion people have of U4 and actually all Land Use groups in Utah. U4 needs a Education director so we can start to implement some of the ideas expressed here.

 

[DOSS]

I did not mean to kill the thread if that is what happened. No one showed up at the U4 meeting to express the ideas in this thread and hopefully volunteer to help. I think that is because of the low opinion people have of U4 and actually all Land Use groups in Utah. U4 needs a Education director so we can start to implement some of the ideas expressed here.

Jack... why would I volunteer when you have already stated that Volunteers will not get the job done?
I put my Idea/thoughts out for public review I don't think that it is necessary for me to come to a meeting that I don't have the ability nor the inclination to attend to share the same idea - also if the only way that U4 can take or will receive ideas is for someone to physically attend said meeting then I feel sorry for your dis-organization.

 

[jackjoh]

I am not doing a very good job of expressing what is going on within U4. Volunteers have been doing a great job within U4 but we lost a lot and have not had any new ones take there place. We have a few that are carrying the load and doing great but we need more help. My statement "volunteers don't get the job done" was meant to say the whole job like land use and education. U4 has been concentrating there efforts where they have the volunteers to get the job done. If U4 is to become more successful they at least need to hire an office person that can be available most of the time to keep up with day to day business. Volunteers have jobs, families, and other activities that come first. Note; this is my personal opinion and not the official opinion of the U4 board.

 

[Lord Al Sorna]

If I may try to offer just a small piece of my own personal insight, for whatever it is worth.

I am guilty of being one of the uninformed idiots in Forest Lake, and I am new to the sport of four-wheel driving. I have only lived in UT for 6 months, and lived in CO and WY before I came out here. I grew up on a very large ranch in WY, so public land use issues are something I never had to think about.
Being an outsider to the state, and new to four wheel driving (on actual 4x4 trails), I had NO IDEA how much of a battle has been going on with land use until I started digging around after my transgression.

With that said, I think a major area of focus that could be very helpful would be blatently getting the message across for new people like me that the sport your just getting into and enthusiastic about may not be around much longer without some maintenance. Maybe we could try to develop an attitude like one would have toward maintaining their 4x4: after every trip you need to grease your zerks, top off your oil, clean out your air filter, and go to a land use meeting or put in a couple of hours on a land use project as part of your scheduled maintenance.

Also, just a small step for education: When people post up their introduction thread on RME, we could start confirming that people are at the very least aware of the issues surrounding the sport and what that means for them. Not like we need to be preachers or anything, just ask: "Hey, welcome to the board. You will find a lot of great people here and a lot of help here. Are you aware of the issues surrounding four-wheel driving in Utah? We want all members of our community here to understand what it means to be a user of 4x4 trails here." (or something to that effect) I realize that RME is a very small percentage of people that use public lands, but it could strengthen this community and help newer people like me take the attuitude of respect and stewardship for the beautiful land of Utah early on in their 4x4 careers.

Just a couple of thoughts...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

That is a great idea, I guess as with anything it comes down to resources and finding a volunteer to put it together. The info is already out there, be it here on a forum or on a land manager site but your right making it readily available to a newbie would go a long ways.

 

[Lord Al Sorna]

I am not sure how it works with the forum hosting and makeup, but would it be possible for the website to post an automatic reply to someones first or intro post, or incorporate it as an automatic PM you get when creating an account?

There could be a letter from RME specifically on land use and how it pertains to the online community that gets sent to new members automatically...

Again, just kicking out ideas. I would be happy to draft up the start of a welcoming letter for an admin to work with and massage to fit the RME needs if this is something that is of interest.

 

[jackjoh]

I think this would be a perfect vehicle to inform and educate. I will volunteer to post up this kind of Land Use and Educational information in the name of U4WDA. It will take me a day or two to put together the information and I will post it up for RME to critique before actual release. I usually check RME at least once a day and do not miss more than 3 days at any one time. If there is anyone else out that that would like to do this say so and it it yours.

 

[scoutabout]

I am not sure how it works with the forum hosting and makeup, but would it be possible for the website to post an automatic reply to someones first or intro post, or incorporate it as an automatic PM you get when creating an account?

There could be a letter from RME specifically on land use and how it pertains to the online community that gets sent to new members automatically...

Again, just kicking out ideas. I would be happy to draft up the start of a welcoming letter for an admin to work with and massage to fit the RME needs if this is something that is of interest.

Hey man, good idea. Seems like an obvious idea, but not one I've seen recently. Good work. Now pester users Greg and Herzog to make it happen! I'm sure they'd be on board with such an idea. Finding the best material will take the most time, but guys like jackjoh and cruiseroutfit are awesome resources.

Read old land use discussions here on RME. Also, check out these links below. You can see ideas that've been tossed around and what kind of resources are available.

http://delalbright.com/index2.html

http://www.sharetrails.org/recreation-toolkit

http://www.nohvcc.org/education/education.asp

Follow through your talk and suggestions with action, and you'll distinguish yourself from 95% of most 4x4 users.

 

[Lord Al Sorna]

Thanks for the links, that helps a lot. I will get going on this soon, but I have to move back to CO this weekend so it will be a week or two before I can get to it.

Jack,
Lets coordinate what you are including/writing if you have started already.



My goal is to keep this clear, concise, and easy to follow. I am going to pull some journalism tricks out of my hat to make that happen, and I think I can come up with a draft that will hopefully make a big difference in awareness of new people to the forum/sport.