So there's this huge elephant in the living room...

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...I think the US should ditch the ethanol production & push towards getting more diesel-powered vehicles in circulation. After we make the move towards more diesel powered vehicles we need to start mass-producing biodiesel grown here in the USA's farms. Diesels are more efficient, last longer and bio will cost less than ethanol. Money from production goes back into the local economy, better emissions, etc.

Biodiesel brings on a whole new debate. After the EPA restricts the crap out of the production facilities, road and use taxes are added and the core price of WVO (or raw vegi oil) is considered, will it really be that much cheaper. From all I gather it really isn't about saving money, bio is about saving the environment as it reduces the greenhouse gasses. Considering how brewers are paying ~$2/gallon to produce with zero tax, zero profit and zero safety/EPA tolerance, I don't see it reducing the cost of diesel by a significant amount. And when will auto-makes design their diesel powered rigs to actually accept even percentage bio? Let alone 100%? Seems they arn't yielding any results as of current?

...I'd also love to see the auto industry build a diesel hybrid, Volkswagen can make a diesel car get 50 MPG why not toss in an electric motor and get 75 MPG? I think the auto industry could try a lot harder for better mileage if it really tried. The attempts so far have been just to pacify the public, IMO.

When will they? When the market wants it... not a segment of the market, not the politicians, not the "loud" voices in the crowd. SUV's are selling just fine still ;)
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
cruiseroutfit said:
SUV's are selling just fine still ;)

Are they? I'd like to see some market data on that. I can't imagine sales have not been affected by the rapid increase in gas prices.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Kurt,
I can tell you what the "rack" price is today on buying gas: $3.388 for regular unleaded (we are retailing at $3.459). There is more markup in the mid-grade and premium ($.05 more for mid and $.10 more for premium). So, the short of it is we are going to sell gas for a 2% profit margin tomorrow (use a credit card and we'll call it even). If we had a 30% margin, we'd all be walking (regular would be around $4.35 today)...

Great info Cam, it may have been you that told me that in the past, amazing how little end markup there is. Again, if gas could be sold cheaper, I honestly think someone would find a way to do it... until then we will all keep buying it :ugh:

Interesting to hear your thoughts on the independent gas stations, I didn't realize the Costco type fuel centers were cutting into the business like that. Do you think they are getting that much better of a deal because of their volume, or are they literally selling at or below cost just to subsidize their actual line of business which is selling groceries???

I'm a strange duck myself... I've purchase gas from the same gas station since I could drive, sure when I'm out of town I get some strange... but literally 90% of my fuel comes from the same station it always has. I'm embarrassed to say that I can't even tell you how much gas was there yesterday or a month ago. Could have been $2.75, could have been $3.50, I didn't look :sick: I don't plan to either. In 2006 I spent $4200 in fuel. Say it was 20 cents more per gallon, thats $20/month extra I paid in fuel (based on 1200 gallons at $3.50 or 3.70/gal). Even if it were $1 more per gallon, thats $100 per month (again based on $1200 gallons per year). $100 a month is alot, I'm by no means made of money... but thats $3 a day. Not going to change my lifestyle anytime soon? I pay double that for my cell-phone, triple that for insurance (which I see no real benefit, talk about a racket). I guess the "pain at the pump" isn't hurting me??? Sure I would love gas to be $2/gallon, but that would only save me $1800/yr. I'd rather have my cell phone be just $40/month, that would save me more than the fuel would. Should the government step in and regulate Verizons profits (sorry Braden, its gotta happen :D).
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Are they? I'd like to see some market data on that. I can't imagine sales have not been affected by the rapid increase in gas prices.

I'm by no means saying they are selling like they were in the late nineties early 2000's, they were selling beyond anyones expectations then. But even now people are buying big SUV's that flat out don't need them. How many of you can really justify owning an big SUV (families of 6+) or a large truck. Do you have to tow your play rig around to sustain life? I know for a fact that sales of SUV's have fallen in the last 2-3 years, but they are still selling at decent rate. There will be plenty that trade in their SUV for an econo car, but not enough to shift the market. The demand for net fuel is still as present as its ever been IMO
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
Hey now, I've never suggested any regulation from the government. -_- I'm actually convinced that electric cars are where we are going, and 4, 5, and 6 dollar gas is the incentive that is going to get us there. I've taken steps to reduce my own usage by 50% or more, so I don't really feel the "pain at the pump" so much either. Moving from largely gas powered vehicles to largely electric powered vehicles is good for the country, the consumer, and the world. I don't mind a little growing pain as long as it gets us there faster. I know this isn't a popular view here, I've got my fire suit on. :rolleyes:
 

Bucking Bronco

................
Location
Layton
I am kinda the same way I get my gas from the same station almost every time though I spend nearly 1000.00 a month on gas I have no choice so I don’t look at the price anymore. Sometimes I look at diesel and it makes me feel better.

I was told that gas from Sinclair is all American oil. Not that it makes much difference but I figure if I can keep my money local maybe it will come back around.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wyoming
I was the same way Kurt - buying fuel from the same location. That is until I moved out of that area.

I really have no room to complain too much, I daily drive my 01 Cummins. If I really felt that it affected my daily life very much I would pick up a smaller commuter in no time. But I really love driving my truck. :D

What I'm concerned about is where does this madness stop? I just keep seeing the prices going up, up, up... When fuel prices used to soar, they eventually came right back down. Now it's just a constant rise. :rofl: The only thing I get angry about is how dependent we are on oil and I feel like they are sticking it to us big time. It's gotta be the best business plan ever.
 

jamesgeologist

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
Location
Ogden, UT
Times Online article from 4/27/08

It’s a myth that the world’s oil is running out
American account
Irwin Stelzer

THERE are more misunderstandings about the oil market than perhaps any other. In America, drivers are fuming and politicians are demanding explanations because petrol has hit about $3.50 a gallon. That’s 47p a litre, less than half the 105p-115p being paid by British motorists. So “high” in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Oxford, Mississippi, is “low” in similarly named cities in Britain.

But assume that prices are “high”, which indeed they are by historic standards. We are mistaken when we think these “high” prices are causing inflation. High oil prices can force consumers to spend more on petrol and heating oil, at the expense of other purchases. Ask any suffering restaurateur or clothes retailer if you doubt that. But high oil prices can’t trigger a rise in the general price level – inflation – unless someone pumps money into the economy so that, to use an oldie but goodie from the economists’ lexicon, there is more money chasing the same amount of goods. If you want something to blame for inflation, don’t look at oil prices, look at the billions the Federal Reserve’s monetary policy gurus and their confederates at the US Treasury are pouring into the economic system.

Another myth: we are running out of oil. According to WorldPublic Opinion.org, “majorities in 15 of the 16 nations surveyed around the world think that oil is running out . . . only 22% on average believe that ‘enough oil will be found so that it can remain a primary source of energy for the foreseeable future’ ”. Those majorities who think we are running out of oil include 85% of the British and 76% of the American citizens polled. Luckily, they are wrong.

Production of oil is being constrained by several forces, none of them due to God’s failure to put enough of the black gold under our feet. Several countries that are important sources of supply are in political turmoil, and unable to bring to market the oil they are capable of producing. Think Nigeria, where security problems have shut down about 20% of the nation’s capacity of 2.5m barrels a day and discouraged new investment, and Iraq, where political paralysis and terrorists have kept production at less than half its potential.

Other countries will not develop the reserves of oil known to lie under their territories.

Russia has made it clear that foreigners who invest in its oil industry might be playing a game with Vladimir Putin known as heads I win, tails you lose. Find nothing and you lose your money; find substantial reserves and the state squeezes you until your shareholders’ pips squeak. Only companies at least 51% owned by Russians – read FOPs, Friends of Putin – are allowed to look for oil in the new, difficult areas in which it is to be found. Little surprise that oil output dropped in the first quarter of this year.

Mexico’s president, Felipe Calderon, wants to revive Petroleos de Mexico (Pemex), the world’s third-largest oil producer, by contracting with foreign companies to introduce modern methods of extracting more from existing fields and finding new ones. But legislation is stalled by left-wingers who have seized and are sleeping at podiums in both houses of congress.

Saudi Arabia’s royal family has announced that it will not expand capacity. Abdallah Jum’ah, chief executive of the kingdom’s oil company, said high prices didn’t mean the world needs more oil because such market signals were “imperfect”, and energy minister Ali al-Naimi has announced that there are no plans to embark on a new round of expansion. The oil is there, but with current production yielding about $120 a barrel, there is no incentive to find more, especially since new production might drive down prices as demand from the slowing American economy falls.

Venezuela’s oil industry can only be described as a mess. President Hugo Chavez’s cronies are inadequate substitutes for the technicians they have replaced, so production is falling, while foreign investors are reluctant to trust hundreds of millions in exploration dollars to a regime that treats contracts as the first step in a negotiation.

In America, Congress alternates between calls for “energy independence” and refusals to allow drilling in what it considers environmentally sensitive areas in Alaska and offshore California and Florida.

There’s more, but you get the idea. There is a lot of oil out there to be found and produced, not even including the vast reserves in Canada’s tar sands. We might have reached the age of peak panic about oil supplies, but not of peak oil.

One thing we think we know about the oil business is correct. High oil prices and the greenhouse gasses produced by using oil have important geopolitical consequences. These $100+ prices have led to a massive flow of wealth, and hence power, from consuming to producing countries. If oil were still $20 or even $40 a barrel Russia would not have the wherewithal to revert to its bullying foreign policy, and America’s banks would not be going hats-in-hand to Arab capitals in search of new capital. If petrol prices had not closed in on $4 a gallon in America, thousands of Chelsea tractors and small trucks would not be sitting, unsold and unloved, on dealers’ lots. If oil had not gone above $100 a barrel, the current enthusiasm for super-expensive nuclear power would not have reached fever pitch.

And if oil did not produce greenhouse gases when propelling cars and heating homes, there would be no huge subsidies for ethanol production, acreage would not be diverted from growing food to growing fuel, and the current run-up in food prices would be less steep.

So oil indeed matters. But not in the ways we most often think.

Irwin Stelzer is a business adviser and director of economic policy studies at the Hudson Institute.
 

Bodine

One Call That's All
Location
WVC
I don't think we have seen a lets say smoking gun answer as to why prices are the way they are but to blame big oil i don't think is the answer either IMO we shouldn't blame a company(s) for being intelligent enough to make money. I am as pissed as the next guy every time I fill up my CTD. Due to the lack of info on this subject leads me to believe the government is at fault for this one. Big oil has the right to make Billions however the American people also have the right and the power to save the Billions we spend on fuel it is blatantly obvious who is concerned more about their bottom line.-_-
If I am able to come up with an answer i will certainly share.:D
 

Bucking Bronco

................
Location
Layton
If we figure out an alternative fuel where will Saudi Arabia or Venezuela Etc, Etc, be without are money financing them. They will then be dependant on us for food but they won’t have anything in return.

I find it ironic that other countries blame America for rising food costs and blame us for turning food into oil.

Maybe if they realize when we figure out an alternative fuel, that they will have a severe problem, then maybe production will increase and prices will come down.
 

spencurai

Vanilla Gorilla
Location
WVC,UT
If we figure out an alternative fuel where will Saudi Arabia or Venezuela Etc, Etc, be without are money financing them. They will then be dependant on us for food but they won’t have anything in return.

I find it ironic that other countries blame America for rising food costs and blame us for turning food into oil.

Maybe if they realize when we figure out an alternative fuel, that they will have a severe problem, then maybe production will increase and prices will come down.
China and India will just burn all that oil instead of us...worry not!
 

Bodine

One Call That's All
Location
WVC
Unfortunatly when a cheaper alternative is discovered and begins to become part of our way of life big oil( who will have come up with the alternative in the first place) will have the billions or trillions to spend on that technology as well. They will have there greedy hands in what ever it takes to power this country thus keeping prices at a premium IMO.
Yes I previously stated that they were not to blame for making money however they are greedy Bastards. How much money does someone need I mean really.
 

Bucking Bronco

................
Location
Layton
I don’t care if “big Oil” gets the money I just want it to stay here and buy goods that were also made here. People say its rhetoric but I don’t want any of my money going to any country that assists the killing of Americans.

I just wish we did not play all the politics and just figure out an alternative fuel already. I don’t remember what channel it was (most likely fox news) I heard a guy bring up the fact we sent a man to the moon in 10 years and built a nuclear bomb in 4 years. If it was not for political grandstanding we would have an alternative fuel by now.
 

C22

Registered User
Interesting to hear your thoughts on the independent gas stations, I didn't realize the Costco type fuel centers were cutting into the business like that. Do you think they are getting that much better of a deal because of their volume, or are they literally selling at or below cost just to subsidize their actual line of business which is selling groceries???

We used to get a "rack" price that included other brands (we were a Phillips 66 at the time and are now Conoco Phillips). Those prices seemed to be within a few cents of each other (Flying J was usually the lowest). I would imagine buying power/quantities is reflected in the rack price. I remember hearing that some companies who control everything from refining to delivery are able to cut significant costs (Maverick comes to mind).

I think some businesses (Costco, Smith's, etc.) use gas as a loss leader to attract grocery business. The difference is there gas is a small portion of their business, the grocery sales are where they make money (same concept as a gas station, only reversed because our grocery sales are significantly less percentage wise than gas sales). We had a Costco open and Smith's put in pumps within a few weeks of each other a few years ago. Our gas sales dropped 40% within 2 months. So, yes, I would say they are willing to take a loss in their net fuel profits to grow their grocery business (it's a good thing for consumers as well, just hard to compete against).
 

jamesgeologist

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
Location
Ogden, UT
What ever happens between now and the near future will not be dictated by how much Americans use or cut back on fuel. There is such a huge global demand for fuel of every denomination that we will likely be very disappointed when we do cut back and the price of a gallon of jet/diesel/gasoline jumps. Demand out of China will take up every inch of slack the rest of the world gives out while converting to renewable resources. Cut out the BS political rhetoric, elect reasonable and intelligent leadership, and move the country to a more domestic based energy solution. Cut out products that use petroleum derivatives in their production and live well. By "live well" I don't mean cut out so much of your life so that you are destitute, cut back a little at a time. Make a conscious effort to reduce your dependence on Chinese products. Slow the demand for the Chinese industrial complex.

BTW, This is not an environmental rant. I would never advocate the reduction of petroleum anything for the sake of the environment. This is purely a political and economic push. There is nothing we as a human species can or will be able to do to stop the overall climate trend.Global warming is a farce and global climate change is natural and has happened since the planet coalesced. Algorians are mindless automatons and frankly so is everyone that is worried about what we are doing to our environment. I liken it to the big pissed off asteroid that is circling the universe on a collision course with earth. We know not when, where or that it even exists, but it will certainly kill us no matter what we do. The environment is unusually stable and that has allowed humans to propagate unhindered. Soon, the natural trend of the earth's climate will become less favorable to humans and we will die off. So be it. I will pick up my rant after I get back from driving my SUV!!

James
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
I don't necessarily buy in to the global warming hype, but it sure does piss me off that I can't see the mountains from across the valley if we have 3 calm days in a row. It used to be that the air would only get really bad during exstended periods of inversion in the winter. Now it happens any time the wind doesn't blow for a couple days. That, combined with the reduced hit to the pocketbook, and the increased national security from not being dependant on foreign oil, is worth a transition to an alternative.
 

Bodine

One Call That's All
Location
WVC
It used to be that the air would only get really bad during exstended periods of inversion in the winter. Now it happens any time the wind doesn't blow for a couple days. That, combined with the reduced hit to the pocketbook, and the increased national security from not being dependant on foreign oil, is worth a transition to an alternative.

I agree with you there, I can remeber when we had an inversion problem every winter but 30 years ago this valley was regularly clear it was also liveable. I would change my driving habbits if I new it could be that way again. I would also like to be paying what Diesel was back then but I think our taxes now are more than the total price of Diesel back then.
 

greenjeep

Cause it's green, duh!
Location
Moab Local!
What ever happens between now and the near future will not be dictated by how much Americans use or cut back on fuel. There is such a huge global demand for fuel of every denomination that we will likely be very disappointed when we do cut back and the price of a gallon of jet/diesel/gasoline jumps. Demand out of China will take up every inch of slack the rest of the world gives out while converting to renewable resources. Cut out the BS political rhetoric, elect reasonable and intelligent leadership, and move the country to a more domestic based energy solution. Cut out products that use petroleum derivatives in their production and live well. By "live well" I don't mean cut out so much of your life so that you are destitute, cut back a little at a time. Make a conscious effort to reduce your dependence on Chinese products. Slow the demand for the Chinese industrial complex.

BTW, This is not an environmental rant. I would never advocate the reduction of petroleum anything for the sake of the environment. This is purely a political and economic push. There is nothing we as a human species can or will be able to do to stop the overall climate trend.Global warming is a farce and global climate change is natural and has happened since the planet coalesced. Algorians are mindless automatons and frankly so is everyone that is worried about what we are doing to our environment. I liken it to the big pissed off asteroid that is circling the universe on a collision course with earth. We know not when, where or that it even exists, but it will certainly kill us no matter what we do. The environment is unusually stable and that has allowed humans to propagate unhindered. Soon, the natural trend of the earth's climate will become less favorable to humans and we will die off. So be it. I will pick up my rant after I get back from driving my SUV!!

James

I agree wholeheartedly!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

soda blaster

Active Member
Location
Saratoga Springs
In reality we buy most of our fuel from Canada and then from Mexico. In Mexico petro is the number one export and they are running low in the next few years you will see some big changes coming. The price of diesel effects me greatly we spend 100.00 a day per machine on diesel so when we are running 3 or 4 machines a day it adds up very quickly. I am all for some sort of alternative fuel for sure. But corn fuel is not the answer it literally takes 1 and 1/2 gallons of gas to make 1 gallon of corn fuel. Doesn't make sense to me at all, and it just runs up the price of other agriculture because it makes the supply lower.
 
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