Digging into the 22RE

[Kevin B.]

I've never had my valve cover off before, so I thought I'd crack a new thread and document what I'm doing and seeing. The backstory, in case you missed the other thread: just outside Helper I picked up some engine noise, a clatter that sounded like it was coming from the valve cover area and was RPM dependant. It was quiet at idle. It got worse when I tried to limp it to a local garage, and eventually seized on the side of the road. We got it to the shop and scoped the pistons, and saw what I think was damage on piston 3, but I've never gotten friendly with a piston before and so I'm going to find out for sure. Comments/suggestions/recommendations are encouraged, and if you feel the need to point and laugh you can do that too.

It's home now, and since I'm not driving trails in Moab I've got a couple days on my hands to see what's what.

Valve cover off:

Everything is tight, no loose screws or nuts or anything. The .. lifters? Rockers? I don't know the term, a couple of the shiny arms across the top will slide against the springs and pop back where most of the others are tight and don't move, I'm guessing because they aren't touching the valves underneath them?

I have this much slack in the timing chain, seems like too much to me - should I be concerned?

The plugs:

Plugs two and three:

Plug three:

If you can't tell on the photos, the porcelain has been cracked and chipped away, and there's carbon buildup all over the plug. It looks to me like something smacked it - how long ago? How long would it take to build up that carbon? Has something been floating around that cylinder for awhile?

I'm headed back out to pull the head, I'll be back when I know more or when I get frustrated and throw my tools down. I expect I'll be at this all weekend, and I'd welcome company if anybody gets bored.

 

[Greg]

Could be that your timing chain guides let go, causing the slack. The 22R/RE is an interference motor, so it's possible valves got bend/broken, putting the engine in a bind. I'll be curious to hear what you find after pulling the head.

 

[Kevin B.]

Could be that your timing chain guides let go, causing the slack. The 22R/RE is an interference motor, so it's possible valves got bend/broken, putting the engine in a bind. I'll be curious to hear what you find after pulling the head.

It's only about 20k from a complete rebuild, I'd be surprised if the guides disintegrated. But I'll know better when I get in there. Would I be able to spot a bent or broken valve from the top?

This bolt right here, second from the back on the right:

... was dry and covered in deposits, compared to the rest of the bolts which were oily and smooth. This bolt is close to piston three. Is this telling me anything?

To my eye, the valve train looks great. Everything is intact and tight and shiny where it's supposed to be.

In Jay's shop in Price, we couldn't rotate the engine at all with a wrench on the bolt on front of the timing gear. Now that the ... valve train? is off, I can rotate it prox 45-60 degrees either way before I run into resistance.

 

[Greg]

It's only about 20k from a complete rebuild, I'd be surprised if the guides disintegrated. But I'll know better when I get in there. Would I be able to spot a bent or broken valve from the top?

That really sucks, who did the rebuild? Any kind of a warranty?

The factory guides aren't that great, they are a known weak link and there are better options out there. Still, with 20k miles on a rebuild, you're probably right... shouldn't be a chain guide issue.

I doubt you'd be able to see a bent/broken valve from the top, probably will have to pull the head and see what's going on inside the cylinders.

 

[Kevin B.]

That really sucks, who did the rebuild? Any kind of a warranty?

Divinity Auto, a Toyota/Lexus specialist down town. He charged me WAY too much, and that's all I'll say for now. I'll save the smack talk for if/when I find evidence of crappiness.

 

[TRD270]

Could be that your timing chain guides let go, causing the slack. The 22R/RE is an interference motor, so it's possible valves got bend/broken, putting the engine in a bind. I'll be curious to hear what you find after pulling the head.

x2 this would be my guess as well, it's a very common failure and if the rebuild shop was cutting corners they probably used your old guides. LC engineering has some really good replacement chains and guides if you end up being able to salvage the motor.


http://www.lceperformance.com/22R-RE-Dual-Row-Timing-Chain-Kit-85-95-LCE-Conv-p/1015018.htm


http://www.lceperformance.com/22R-Single-Row-Timing-Chain-Kit-With-Metal-Guides-p/1015035.htm

 

[Kevin B.]

He charged me for a new chain and guides, it's on the bill. If I find disintegrated guides I shall be very put out. So that IS definitely too much slack, then? It's nice and tight on the left side, just the right side that I can pull up like that.

 

[TRD270]

Hard to say without seeing it in person, but it looks to loose. As far as the shiny things "rocker arms" you can move some of them because there is no pressure on them. The ones you can't move are under tension from the camshaft.

Also looks like you might have 1 maybe two dead cylinders, I would check you plug wires, cap and rotor when you get it all back together

 

[TRD270]

In Jay's shop in Price, we couldn't rotate the engine at all with a wrench on the bolt on front of the timing gear. Now that the ... valve train? is off, I can rotate it prox 45-60 degrees either way before I run into resistance.

You probably have a bent valve, if the timing chain guides are toast your chain may have skipped a tooth or two and your piston likely impacted one or more of your valves and bent it. Taking the rockers off removes the spring tension on some of your cylinders allowing all the valves to "try" and come back up. If one or more is bent it will not seat all the way preventing you from rotating the motor because the piston is running into it

 

[Kevin B.]

You probably have a bent valve, if the timing chain guides are toast your chain may have skipped a tooth or two and your piston likely impacted one or more of your valves and bent it. Taking the rockers off removes the spring tension on some of your cylinders allowing all the valves to "try" and come back up. If one or more is bent it will not seat all the way preventing you from rotating the motor because the piston is running into it

That makes a lot of sense. From the top down the guides look ok, but obviously they could be broken further down.

Rain is causing slow progress and sapping my motivation. I much prefer sitting at my desk and surfing KSL for a new Supra motor.

 

[Kevin B.]

Also looks like you might have 1 maybe two dead cylinders, I would check you plug wires, cap and rotor when you get it all back together

Obviously the one plug (#3) is shot, did you see another one that looked bad to you?

 

[I Lean]

Even if he did use new chain guides, they can still break easily unless he upgraded you to the metal-backed guides. (and the standard timing kit will always just have the plastic guides)
I'll agree with TRD270, on having a bent valve. Been there done that--in my case it was due to bolting the head to the block without making sure the timing was where it needed to be--so I smashed the valve into the piston and got to take the head back off and get it fixed. Again.

Also, the Toyota service manual specifies a sequence to take off the head bolts, as well as putting it back on again. I'm not sure how important it REALLY is, but it's possible for the head to warp if the sequence isn't followed. (I'm sure it's far more important when putting it back together)

 

[TRD270]

might be the same plug twice, looked like two had build up on them, also one looks like it might be running lean. May want to check out the injectors

 

[Kevin B.]

Oil is drained - no shavings, no chunks. I've got the upper plenum removed, and boy was that a PITA. Lower plenum and exhaust bolts to go, and then I think I'll have some resolution.

 

[Kevin B.]

Which bolt am I missing? Don't tell me it's underneath at the firewall, or I'm going to go punch a nun in the face.

 

[Kevin B.]

TWO bolts I was missing. You can see the one in the last picture, hiding behind that beeyotch of a coolant hose. The other one is where I suspected, underneath and to the back. I wouldn't have been able to get to it without the ratcheting boxends I bought from TRNDRVR - best $40 I've ever spent on tools, those things rock socks.

 

[sLcREX]

How's it coming along?

 

[Kevin B.]

Slowly.

Intake plenum and manifold are removed. I was expecting the head to budge, but it hasn't, so I'm wading through the FSM to see what else I'm missing.

ETA - the chain cover bolt, that's what. Stupid hiding bolts.

 

[Kevin B.]

So, is this bad, do you guys think?

How did this not lead to me dumping oil all over the road?

 

[I Lean]

Is that a hole in the side of your block I spy?