Rock Crawling & Poll (New Thread)

[BCGPER]

It's anything that says Ramsey on it...... :greg:

Yes, you're right on your guess of what it is. I'm sure there's a more technical name for it, but suck winch works for me.

this "suck winch" is a new concept to me. do a lot of rigs have this? Is it just a smaller winch mounted inside frame rails or something to suck the rig down and have a lower center of gravity?

 

[Craig S]

Go back and look at page three Street Stock Rules and see if there OK as per our discussion. I threw in every thing we talked about so far. Let me know if I screwed it up. I did allow front bumper mounted winches to act as an adjustable limiting strap. If it goes against the theme of things, it can be eliminated. I think there will be people show up with winches tied to the front axle. They will need them on the big hill.

 

[BCGPER]

Craig, what about track width? I don't feel a Jeep (or whatever) sporting full width running gear should be considered stock. Maybe:

Only factory offered axles with any internal modifications desired allowed.

 

[Tacoma]

I don't see anything wrong with using "suck winches" on street vehicles ( or rather: regular old winches attached to the axle).

Street vehicles are often modded to emulate race vehicles. On a short wheelbase rig like say... a Blazer LOL I think it's a great idea to suck the front end down.


as for this:

Craig, what about track width? I don't feel a Jeep (or whatever) sporting full width running gear should be considered stock. Maybe:

Only factory offered axles with any internal modifications desired allowed.

That would disallow all the GM guys with Dana 60's and 14bolts, unless they're running longbed pickups????

fullwidth usually isn't street legal due to mudflap issues... buuuuttttt.......
I don't think the use of a bumper-mounted winch to suck the suspension down should be disallowed.

 

[Tacoma]

ah man... no tubbing! that sucks. 35/12.5's rub like hell on a Blazer, I was going to move that tub over a couple inches.

 

[Crinco]

While it can give a degree of advantage, I look upon a suck down winch as more a piece of safety equipment. That being said, in the stock class I don't see there being that many suspensions that would unload so much that one would be needed.
Any vehicle that came with 69.5" wide axles would be so top heavy that the extra width would be needed for them to be competitive.
CR

 

[mbryson]

........ That would disallow all the GM guys with Dana 60's and 14bolts, unless they're running longbed pickups????

If someone wants to compete in the 'stock' class with their K30, I don't see why this is an issue. In early UROC, there were at least a couple competitors running full size rigs. One a full-size Bronco and the other a Blazer (or pickup--I can't remember honestly). The guy with the Bronco was running the TTB front end.

fullwidth usually isn't street legal due to mudflap issues... buuuuttttt.......
I don't think the use of a bumper-mounted winch to suck the suspension down should be disallowed.

Why is this even a point of contention? My axles aren't far from stock (for a K30), but they are totally not available in ANY Jeep. If I competed and did well (unlikely), I'd feel kinda stupid competing against guys with stock 'yota or D30s. Kind of a hollow victory, in my mind (again, assuming I did well and won which would most likely not be the case--I'd expect to do well, but winning is tough). Even though my track width is similar to a "stock" class rig, I'm not having to worry about using the throttle like I would be in my old XJ.

 

[I Lean]

Depending on the obstacle, a wider track might hurt, or it might help. I don't think there can be a dividing line based on what axles you have under your choice of rigs--my old flatty with Toyota axles wouldn't have qualified for stock based on that criteria.

What about putting stronger axleshafts in a stock axle? That gives you an advantage too.

My vote is, if you're "street legal" you probably fit in the stock class. And for consistency (and since most will be from here) "street legal" needs to mean legal to Utah laws. (sorry Wayne ) (edit: unless Wayne's rig fits as street legal in Utah....but it sounds like he's too tall)

 

[waynehartwig]

Depending on the obstacle, a wider track might hurt, or it might help. I don't think there can be a dividing line based on what axles you have under your choice of rigs--my old flatty with Toyota axles wouldn't have qualified for stock based on that criteria.

What about putting stronger axleshafts in a stock axle? That gives you an advantage too.

My vote is, if you're "street legal" you probably fit in the stock class. And for consistency (and since most will be from here) "street legal" needs to mean legal to Utah laws. (sorry Wayne ) (edit: unless Wayne's rig fits as street legal in Utah....but it sounds like he's too tall)

If my tires were covered, then I would be street legal in Utah. Frame height is what, 24" for a 5500 lb gvw? I think I'm at 21". My Jeep just barely fits in the same garage that it just barely fit in with 35's... Once I get the steering situated, I should be able to drop it another 2" at least. I've even thought about dropping back down to 37" tires, because 39's are way big for up here and way more expensive than 37 or even 35's. But of course, that wouldn't happen until these were worn out....

I think the street class should have it's own definitions and not 'legal for UT roads'. I think putting it that way is unfair for those that are legal where they are registered. But if you were to say the street class shouldn't have larger than 37" (35") tires, full body rig, etc then I'm in total agreement there.

As for axles, I agree, I think they can have anything they want under it as long as the tire size doesn't go over. Somebody with a 14T in the rear, isn't going to have 37" tires - and if they do, they won't be able to drive through the parking lot without getting told 'your on your diff'. But there are lots of people with stock like rigs running Currie axles front and rear with 33 or 35" tires and stock width.

 

[Craig S]

Thank you for all for the input. This is very good.

Lots of discussion here about street legal in Utah vs out of state. Most competitors will be from Utah, if the other competitors protest a rig (say from Colorado), we can look at it then and take a vote by competitors at the driver meeting. For the record, I don't like the Utah laws on 4x4 vehicles, but it is the law.

Axles are another issue, if the owner has invested cash to put a set of D60s in the vehicle and it passes inspection because they are narrowed and the vehicle has big flairs covering the tires, he should be good to go. On the other hand, anybody that is obviously cheating can be protested by other drivers at the driver meeting and they can vote on whether that vehicle should run as it is, assign penalty points or move to the next class.

Suck winches on the front only. They are street legal and should be good to go.

For the tubbing, go with wheel spacers and flairs to meet the rules. The vehicle will be more stable anyway. I have used spacers a lot and had good luck with them.

There will always be some different opinions for any set of rules. Included below is what PRO ROCK does. I have been told that they have the best set of stock rules. Compare what we have come up with so far to them.

Modified Stock Class is intended for well-built trail vehicles modified using readily available aftermarket parts and being street legal. Any rules or restrictions needed to maintain the spirit of this class will be implemented. The intent of Modified Stock Class is to stay within factory designs while allowing aftermarket modifications that are normal in the 4x4 recreation sport. There are no restrictions on engine, tranny, t-case, axles or suspension. Bead lock wheels are allowed.

1- Vehicle must be Titled.

2- Maximum tire size of 35" as labeled by the tire manufacturer.

3- Frame is to be OEM or direct OEM design aftermarket replacement. Frame re-enforcements are allowed.

4- Wheelbase of the vehicle must be within 2.5" of OEM. There will be zero leeway here.

5- Steering will be completely of OEM design. Hydraulic and hydraulic assist is not allowed.

6- Equipped with a winch

7- Real lockers front and rear. No limited slips

8- Seat belts or harnesses for driver and spotter

9- 2 Fire extinguishers (one for Driver & Spotter) -see Safety Rule above-

10- First Aid kit

11- Roll cage designed to keep passengers safe in the case of a multiple roll over accident

12 - Bodies must be full width of OEM. Bodywork must extend a minimum of 24" past the rear axle.

 

[Bart]

Hey Craig, you better pull Bob Hazel's name out of that last line. He'd be surprised to be getting a call.

 

[SAMI]

I think i'm stuck with spotting, spectating or judging... my 4runner's wheelbase kicks it far out of the class i'd want to be in.. unless of course i stretch the truth abit... it's a 4runner body on an Xtra cab frame

-Jason

 

[waynehartwig]

I think the ones you posted before and just now are equally good and both really define a stock rig.

The only bad thing is the roll cage. Most people with DD's aren't going to have this necessary safety feature - even as much as a sport cage. While I think it's necessary, I dont' think you'll be able to enforce it and still have a showing of competitors.

I do 100% agree with the other safety features, like extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. Those items every joe blow can have for next to nothing and every recreational wheeler should have them anyway.

 

[Craig S]

I think the ones you posted before and just now are equally good and both really define a stock rig.

The only bad thing is the roll cage. Most people with DD's aren't going to have this necessary safety feature - even as much as a sport cage. While I think it's necessary, I dont' think you'll be able to enforce it and still have a showing of competitors.

I do 100% agree with the other safety features, like extinguisher, first aid kit, etc. Those items every joe blow can have for next to nothing and every recreational wheeler should have them anyway.

I agree with the cage issue and it will have to be taken care of at some point. Here are the Legend Class rules. Don't be afraid to work this section over!

2. Legend Class

2.1 Tires

40" maximum measured tire diameter by sidewall designation.

2.2 Steering

Front axle steering only, rear steer is not allowed.

2.4 Body

Body panels are required. Body panels must closely match the original factory configuration of the vehicle and contain at
least 5 square ft. of area on each side not counting the hood, cowl or doors (two wheel drive conversions are not allowed). In
case of any uncertainty as to vehicle’s manufacturer and model, the manufacturer and model of the vehicle listed on the title
will be used (see section 3.2).

2.5 Seating

Vehicles must have two (2) seats side by side.

2.6 Engine

Mass produced automobile/light-truck engine available to the public mounted forward of the driver.

2.7 Suspension

Changes in wheelbase only from normal suspension movement.

 

[greenjeep]

So, would a CJ body on a TJ frame be ok, or does that count as 1.3-c?

Everything else I should be ok on for stock rules, otherwise that pushes me to Legend.

 

[cannoncrawler]

I know I am gunna get flamed or band for this but what happened to this being a funcrawl? a bunch of guys just getting together to have some fun, and raising money for a cause. what happened to it didn't really matter who won or lost and we were all friends? Maybe I am going overboard, and reactionary, but the last two pages have been about tweeking the rules as to not offend anyone?

I went wheeling the other day with a fullsize with 40's and a jeep with 33's the open jeep with 33's made it a place I couldn't go, then later I pulled him out of an easy stuck. lets keep this fun!! don't whine about the little things. remember this is for fun!!!

 

[SAMI]

I know I am gunna get flamed or band for this but what happened to this being a funcrawl? a bunch of guys just getting together to have some fun, and raising money for a cause. what happened to it didn't really matter who won or lost and we were all friends? Maybe I am going overboard, and reactionary, but the last two pages have been about tweeking the rules as to not offend anyone?

I went wheeling the other day with a fullsize with 40's and a jeep with 33's the open jeep with 33's made it a place I couldn't go, then later I pulled him out of an easy stuck. lets keep this fun!! don't whine about the little things. remember this is for fun!!!

a small group of rigs out for a joyride is abit different than what's being planned here... IMO, to make it fun there would have to be a structure.. otherwise people will get thier toes stepped on. there'll be an easy 1000+ people involved with this... not just a group of afew jeeps, a minitruck, and a broken down blue scout...

$.02

 

[waynehartwig]

So, would a CJ body on a TJ frame be ok, or does that count as 1.3-c?

Everything else I should be ok on for stock rules, otherwise that pushes me to Legend.

I'm not sure if the rules say it's ok or not, but I think it would be? It's a stock frame and tub? It's also made of stock frame tubing.?

That legend class sounds perfect, Craig! This made me laugh, though...

2.2 Steering

Rear steer is not allowed.

So basically, any steering your good to go, as long as you aren't turning the rear wheels. Classic.

The legend class also defines my rig to a T. I like the legacy rules you have been posting...

 

[waynehartwig]

a small group of rigs out for a joyride is abit different than what's being planned here... IMO, to make it fun there would have to be a structure.. otherwise people will get thier toes stepped on. there'll be an easy 1000+ people involved with this... not just a group of afew jeeps, a minitruck, and a broken down blue scout...

$.02

I agree. It's not like we are on a trail ride; where everybody takes the same line and either makes it or takes a bypass. There's got to be some kind of structure to keep all simular rigs on the same line with each other. Like someone said earlier, we need to put people against people, not rigs against rigs. Meaning we want the better driver to win, not the better rig. If that were the case, it would be easy for Craig to bring his comp buggy and trump all of the TJ's on 33's with no lockers. Keep it fun and fair for everyone and there is more chance for everyone to walk away feeling good about the event and wanting to do it again next year. Step on a bunch of toes, and it will end up being a one time wonder.

 

[Craig S]

So, would a CJ body on a TJ frame be ok, or does that count as 1.3-c?

Everything else I should be ok on for stock rules, otherwise that pushes me to Legend.

I'm Ok with it. 1.3-c should probly come out.