Snowbird expansion in Mineral Basin

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Shawn, where was this meeting held and who hosted it?

The Utah County Chamber of Commerce doesn't list it on their calendar as an event let alone public invite. I'm yet to find any AFC stakeholder (motorized, hiker, biker, land owner, etc) that has heard of this meeting???
 
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Shawn

Just Hanging Out
Location
Holly Day
Ease back a little Kurt. As mentioned this was an "event" where we as sales individuals talked about Snowbird in general, you know my field of business. Part of our conversations included AF. There was no scheduled meeting to specifically speak about AF. I spoke with Dave today regarding a meeting to speak directly about this us, yes I said us. Just because I posted up on this thread doesn't mean I too don't have feelings about loosing access. Don't attack me, I'm trying to help. Let me do my part and try and set something up.

Or if you prefer, I'll just step back into the shadows and let you all do what you need to do. I also feel Kevin B's post was a little insulting.

Thanks and have a pleasant tomorrow
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Shawn, I'd love to see what you can do from where you sit. I do remember your efforts in the last Snowbird "incident ". Please let us know what we can do to get a voice to maintain access
 

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
Ease back a little Kurt. As mentioned this was an "event" where we as sales individuals talked about Snowbird in general, you know my field of business. Part of our conversations included AF. There was no scheduled meeting to specifically speak about AF. I spoke with Dave today regarding a meeting to speak directly about this us, yes I said us. Just because I posted up on this thread doesn't mean I too don't have feelings about loosing access. Don't attack me, I'm trying to help. Let me do my part and try and set something up.

Or if you prefer, I'll just step back into the shadows and let you all do what you need to do. I also feel Kevin B's post was a little insulting.

Thanks and have a pleasant tomorrow

Seems to me Kurt has so very legitimate questions about an "event" that will take away 416 acres of public land to be privatized by Snowbird.

I have no doubt you enjoy your employment and love most aspects of the company. However, when an organization secretly acquired lands and attempts to offer deals to benefit them without public comment or debate, there is a REAL problem. I am not sure how this does not bother you as one who claims to enjoy 4x4 and outdoor recreational use of public lands?

You have invited us to get to know the real project. Well, enlighten us. Where are Snowbirds plans posted and made available for public comment? Do we have the ACTUAL plans? As Kurt pointed out we have to beg and plead to get only a gain of the truth. If you want to support Snowbirds privatizing AFC, then give us the real plan you have access to in your meeting.
 

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
I've read the Mountain Accord and AFCVision websites. I've seen the signs posted by Snowbird where 100-year-old trails cross their new property. I've seen what's happened in upper Mineral Basin and the entire Little Cottonwood Canyon. Can you show me where I can find out what Snowbird actually wants to do with the rest of AFC and where that differs from what it looks like they're doing?

I don't mean to put you on the spot, and I appreciate you stepping up, but I think you have rose colored glasses on. I'd love to be wrong about what Snowbird wants for AFC, can you demonstrate that I am? Can you or some other Snowbird rep provide specific assurances that trails we enjoy will not be closed? That Snowbird won't be paving/blading roads to encourage even more users in an already over-used canyon, and working behind the scenes with the FS to implement even more ways to make money off those users? That trams and avalanche cannons and other signs of development won't ruin the character of the upper canyon? Because that's what I think Snowbird wants, and I'm basing that opinion on the information being released by Snowbird on their AFCVision web site. If you're going to encourage us to "find out more about what is being proposed rather than reacting to what others are thinking is happening", I'd like to encourage you to provide the location of information contradicting what we're thinking is happening. :)

x2
 
Because that's what I think Snowbird wants, and I'm basing that opinion on the information being released by Snowbird on their AFCVision web site. If you're going to encourage us to "find out more about what is being proposed rather than reacting to what others are thinking is happening", I'd like to encourage you to provide the location of information contradicting what we're thinking is happening. :)

Yes Shawn, please tell us differently. I would love to find out that Snowbird DOESN'T have dreams of a tram to Tibble Fork or 085 being paved to Mineral Basin or condos at the base of Miller Hill. Instead of all these private meetings and offers to "clear it up" one-on-one (so each individual or group can be told "what they want to hear"), how about a copy of Snowbirds Master Development Plan, then we can all see for ourselves what is and what isn't being considered?

Was the public invited to this event? Where was it advertised? This is the absolute first I've heard of this meeting and I've been in contact with the AFC Vision, FS, Snowbird (Jason Goates passed my info along to Mr. Fields to set up a meeting, no contact yet) as well as the Cedar Hills Mayor. Not a single word or invite from any of them and NONE of our PPAFC staff, U4WDA, ATV clubs, etc heard a single thing about this.

Yes interesting "event". Wondering if all these people who Shawn talked to in support of Snowbird's "plans" have access to Snowbird's ACTUAL plans? Or were they just told what they want to hear?


What we are "thinking":

A. Snowbird wants 416 acres of land in AFC, comprised of 5 parcels, 3 of which have motorized routes crossing and/or ending on them. In exchange, Snowbird is offering up land outside of AFC with zero motorized access and zero threat of loss of access by hikers, etc. This all done on a plan that was scoped to have 0% to do with AFC and Utah County and thus, wasn't on the radar of anyone involved in AFC and or Utah County. In fact until the final Mountain Accord plan came out, the parcels in AFC were not even publicly identified. Correct or no?

B. Snowbird has expressed interest since the 90's of having a tram, gondola or similar to Tibble Fork Reservoir, that directly from Mr. Bonar's mouth. More recently that same gondola was proposed to the State of Utah for study funding. That funding was granted albeit $100k which became the AFC Vision, chartered to study among other items... future transportation in the canyon i.e. the potential for a gondola. Correct or no?

C. Snowbird has systematically purchased land with existing and historical motorized access throughout the canyon including routes (Miller Hill) that in fact cross their land but return to public land, thus maintain a right-of-way for public users. Despite that ROW, they have signed it to threaten closure in the future. Correct or no?

D. Snowbird has signed part or all of their AFC holdings with "No Trespassing" signs, in fact hundreds of yards away from their current property borders. This confirmed by the Lone Peak 4x4 Club and the Forest Service in their site visit last month. It was reported by Snowbird that this was simply for over the snow traffic and all or part of the signs were removed as of yesterday. Correct or no?

I wish this was wrong and we were all just "misinformed", but there's evidence already proving this. Shawn, no disrespect, please set us straight with verifiable information.

I'd like to see dissemination of more accurate information and people getting involved to let their voices be heard. If someone has better information (Shawn or otherwise), please provide it for everyone to evaluate.
 
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jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
Yes Shawn, please tell us differently. I would love to find out that Snowbird DOESN'T have dreams of a tram to Tibble Fork or 085 being paved to Mineral Basin or condos at the base of Miller Hill. Instead of all these private meetings and offers to "clear it up" one-on-one (so each individual or group can be told "what they want to hear"), how about a copy of Snowbirds Master Development Plan, then we can all see for ourselves what is and what isn't being considered?



Yes interesting "event". Wondering if all these people who Shawn talked to in support of Snowbird's "plans" have access to Snowbird's ACTUAL plans? Or were they just told what they want to hear?




I wish this was wrong and we were all just "misinformed", but there's evidence already proving this. Shawn, no disrespect, please set us straight with verifiable information.

I'd like to see dissemination of more accurate information and people getting involved to let their voices be heard. If someone has better information (Shawn or otherwise), please provide it for everyone to evaluate.

It would seem that the powers that be do not want us to see these master plans or we would have by know. This is a deliberate effort to hide and conceal information because Snowbird knows the resistance they have and will continue to get. So, they work in the shadows to misinform and work secret deals so the public will not find out.

I have no hard feelings toward Shawn, but for him to tell us that we need to get informed on the real issues when snowbird refuses to give the ACTUAL details of their plan is utter disrespect and a slap in our face.

Again, we are calling for the detail plan of Snowbird in American Fork Canyon. If those who want the project to move forward have nothing to hide and support it,then release the details, the actual details. Not some hearsay about the project, we already have that. But actual written plans and developmental maps.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Ease back a little Kurt. As mentioned this was an "event" where we as sales individuals talked about Snowbird in general, you know my field of business. Part of our conversations included AF. There was no scheduled meeting to specifically speak about AF. I spoke with Dave today regarding a meeting to speak directly about this us, yes I said us. Just because I posted up on this thread doesn't mean I too don't have feelings about loosing access. Don't attack me, I'm trying to help. Let me do my part and try and set something up.

Or if you prefer, I'll just step back into the shadows and let you all do what you need to do. I also feel Kevin B's post was a little insulting.

Thanks and have a pleasant tomorrow


Sorry Shawn, all to easy for me to get amped up about AFC but please don't feel like I'm coming at your throat, I'm just trying to make my fingers move as fast as my mind. :eek: I apologize I came across that way.

Acknowledged on the sales meeting, that clears things up a lot and makes sense why it wasn't on anyone's radar.

I would absolutely LOVE to meet with Dave and yourself, that would be fantastic. I know the PPAFC folks are also in discussion to meet with him perhaps Friday and I'm planning to join them but if it would serve us well to sit down with the 3 of us I'm 100% for it. Chat with Dave and see what his thoughts are. Thanks for stepping in with some behind the scenes help Shawn!
 

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Vehicular limbo
I also feel Kevin B's post was a little insulting.

I've deleted four or five responses to this :). I'll keep this one short and sweet - I don't mean to be insulting, and I apologize that you feel attacked. I don't want you to "step back into the shadows", it sounds like you're in a position to facilitate communication here and that's valuable for all parties. It takes a measure of fortitude to step up in front of a crowd of hostile and irate wheelers, and I respect you for it.

I would still like to know where we can find out more about what Snowbird is proposing, if you don't mind.
 
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skiboarder

SkiBoarder
Location
No Ogden
The problem here is lack of information. Snowbird has kept what they are doing quiet. This has happened before at other resorts. They do closed door meetings and in the shadows negotiations. By the time we, as concerned individuals, find out what has transpired it is to late for our input.
 

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
The problem here is lack of information. Snowbird has kept what they are doing quiet. This has happened before at other resorts. They do closed door meetings and in the shadows negotiations. By the time we, as concerned individuals, find out what has transpired it is to late for our input.

Plus, if the fees structure remains, it will no doubt go up, if not double in price. Why, because snowbird will work out a deal for us as the taxpayers to help pay for their privatizing of the lands and development i.e. paved road from tibble fork res to mineral basin. That kind job will take a very long time and a TON of money to accomplish. Not to mention the canyon will most likely be closed or severely limited in traffic while it's being done. So much for the peace and solitude this canyon offers.

Snowbird needs to stay our of American Fork Canyon, and every cooperation wanting to privatize our lands needs to stay out for that matter.
 

UFAB

Well-Known Member
Location
Lehi Ut
I feel like the media will inform the non offroaders in a way that they will support any new development in AFC. The majority is not the gasoline burning recreational users. Unfortunately offering new things to the majority usually can be difficult for some. The growth of Utah county is expected to get big and so does the need for recreation. Environmental impact report will reflect the final outcome.
 

JL Rockies

Binders Fulla Expo
Location
Draper
Well, at least it will give the off-road community a moral equivalency argument. Statists love making moral equivalency arguments so it can have great power.
Boycott is your only remedy here.


Utah Bureau of Awesomeness Department.
 

Shawn

Just Hanging Out
Location
Holly Day
Here you go:

Snowbird presentation on American Fork Canyon
June 16, 2015
5:15pm
Fox Hollow Golf Course
1400 North 200 East
American Fork

I truly hope that you can attend and see the plan fist hand and have all of your questions and concerns answered.
 

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
Here you go:

Snowbird presentation on American Fork Canyon
June 16, 2015
5:15pm
Fox Hollow Golf Course
1400 North 200 East
American Fork

I truly hope that you can attend and see the plan fist hand and have all of your questions and concerns answered.

Thank you for sharing Shawn.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Here you go:

Snowbird presentation on American Fork Canyon
June 16, 2015
5:15pm
Fox Hollow Golf Course
1400 North 200 East
American Fork

I truly hope that you can attend and see the plan fist hand and have all of your questions and concerns answered.

Thanks for posting that Shawn. I've been chatting back-channel with Dave F. to see if we should meet before or after the 16th meeting to discuss routes specifically. I'm sure he'll get back to me shortly. The PPAFC gents arranged the meeting above and have been advertising it to any elected officials, AFCV folks and I've invited Marc and any U4WDA officers to attend as well. Appreciate you staying in touch on this. Dave did tell me this:

"We also believe in preserving existing, legal motorized access to American Fork Canyon."
&
"Otherwise, if people assume responsibility for themselves and stay on the roads, they’re welcome to use those areas."

I've got some ideas on how we can make that happen on our end, at least promote respecting the private property outside of the ROW i.e. on both sides of the road. Can an avalanche gun shoot warning shots at rogue 4x4'ers off the trail? :D
 

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
If we loose this canyon, we loose the last remanding gem in the Wasatch. I understand the balance between expanding our economy, creating jobs and the challenges of public land use. However, our public and wild lands mean more to our future and current generations than Snowbirds pockets.

I want to be able to bring my family up this canyon without a paved road up 85 and gated private property lines. I want to be able to enjoy a view unspoiled by mans hand.
 

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Vehicular limbo
"We also believe in preserving existing, legal motorized access to American Fork Canyon."
&
"Otherwise, if people assume responsibility for themselves and stay on the roads, they’re welcome to use those areas."

That's promising, but I'd feel a lot better if somebody other than Snowbird were in charge of deciding whether those roads stay open.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
That's promising, but I'd feel a lot better if somebody other than Snowbird were in charge of deciding whether those roads stay open.

That might be the issue regardless of the land swap. These are historic routes and the FS has them on their MVUM. Given their history of use and public access, public easements and right-of-ways exist.
 
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