Wolves in Utah

[Houndoc]

I would be very intersted to see proof of worlf/coyote crosses. Actually, just proof of an ongoing wolf population in that area would be interesting to see proof of.

In my opinion, the entire wolf issue is way to emotional on both sides.

The anti-hunting/pro-wolf crowd needs to recognize that population control (hunting of wolves) is ciritical to the species long term success- over population does no one any good.

And we as hunters need to get away from the dooms-day predictions. Yes the Yellowstone elk populations are way down, but they were too high to begin with. The decreased elk population has benefitted other species (such as moose).

There are many areas (Alaska, areas of Canadan, northern plains states) with wolf populations and other species still thriving.

Scientific management of the wolf needs to happen, and won't if both sides are too emotional about it.

 

[DAA]

I agree whole heartedly on the emotion. Hysteria is closer to how I see it. Facts are almost completely ignored. On both sides.

Your areas for comparison, Alasak, Canada, UP) bear almost no resemblance to the facts on the ground here though. We got no caribou. We got no sustainable large elk herds. We got no huge tracts of contiguous suitable habitat.

We also got no chance at all of managing wolfs by "hunting". That's simply not how it is done and the reason why it isn't being done in other areas at this time.

You manage an animal like the wolf by having professionals cull them and keep them at sustainable levels. There is absolutely no political will, let alone money, to make that happen.

It ain't gonna happen.

If the wolves are able to establish themselves here, they will eventually eat themselves mostly out of suitable habitat. The elk populations are being artificially supported for the benefit of sportsman. The wolves WILL eat that population way down and there won't be any possible way of getting it back up without killing the wolves. See paragraph about lack of political and economic will...

Like I said, I agree about the emotions on both sides running to ridiculous, hysterical levels. Intelligent conversation on the subject is virtually non-existent. But, that is part of the deal. It's not going to magically change and become easier to discuss facts when the facts are actually on the ground and making decisions for themselves.

I do not believe this beautiful, balanced, management scenario is ever going to happen.

So, I'd just as soon the buggers stayed away.

But, they'll do as they please.

- DAA

 

[thefirstzukman]

He is a picture of a wolf track up sheep creek, verified by the springville fish cops and they say there are five known wolves up there.

Wolves will eat any big game, they don't care what it is, a moose is just as easy to kill as an elk. Calling yourself a hunter and not caring about the wolf problems is like calling yourself a user of the off road trail systems and not caring about trail closures.

If the off road community was half as passionate as the people wanting the wolves delisted then we would be running a lot of our old trails that have been closed over the last few years.

This is a real problem and you can't just turn your head and pretend you can't do anything, if you do that then you really can't.

3" 410 shell in the track

 

[cruiseroutfit]

 

[sixstringsteve]

Now, I'm no tracker, but last time I was up at Forest Lake with you Scott, I saw some tracks like that. I thought it was just a HUGE dog (which it might have been in that case). Anyone want to go camping at Forest Lake?


BTW, where did you take that picture with the 410 shell?

 

[thefirstzukman]

I am pretty sure that those tracks up at forest lake were wolves, and it would make sense that if they are in sheep creek then they would be in AF canyon.

That track is right below the tower on the teat mountain road in sheep creek.

 

[DAA]

It would be interesting and useful to know what additional evidence the Springville fish cops used to make the I.D.? With just what is in the picture, all you can say is large canine.

Wolves do leave behind evidence of their presence though. If there are five of them in the area, it should be easy to find substantial proof. Among other things, they'll be making large kills almost daily with lots of heavy sign left at each. If they are there, hunters won't be able to help but find some of these kill sites later this month. And for anyone with some experience looking at such, they'll be unmistakably "wolf".

Even just some more complete pictures of tracks like the one above would be more helpful in convincing me. If I could see the stride and the alignment of the rear foot with the front. But a single track like that, honestly, doesn't even move my meter.

I have a couple of close friends that deal with wolves and wolf complaints on a professional level. One is a federal wildlife biologist working out of the Worland, Wyoming BLM office, the other is a full time Animal Damage Control officer (Gov't trapper) covering Natrona county Wyoming. They both work in areas where there are documented wolves. But even then, the majority of wolf sightings and complaints they have to follow up on turn out to be mistaken identity or false.

Besides the entrenched emotions already talked about, one of the things that always bugs me about this subject, is how ignorant people are in general, about how difficult it would be for a group of wolves to remain secret or hidden for very long. If they are there, they are going to be leaving TONS of sign, killing LOTS of big game, making lots of VERY distinctive howls (they don't sound like coyotes...), etc., etc., etc.

A loner or transient pair passing through now and then, sure, they can move like ghosts and leave little or no solid evidence behind. And that has for sure happened here in Utah. Even members of an Idaho or Wyoming pack making a foray across the border could easily go undocumented (although several such forays actually HAVE been documented...). But a new resident pack? Come on... They are going to become known. Hell, the first resident pack here in Utah is going to be FAMOUS. In short order. With no possibility of it being kept a secret.

Maybe the track above actually is a member of that first resident pack. But it will take a lot more than a picture like that or "so and so says" to even start to convince me. But, like I said, if they really are there, it won't be long before the evidence will be overwhelming and conclusive.

- DAA

 

[thefirstzukman]

The first verified pack of wolves was in utah in 2008. The track above is an inch larger than any dog, and the wildlife biologist in the springville office is who said it was a wolf. They do have five seperate wolves they know about on trail cameras but do you think they are going to tell anyone about that? or do you think they would rather keep it on the down low? There were 2 federal biologist with in 2 miles of that track 1 week later and I have run into them twice now. I dont know what they are doing but I have a guess. My dad is from Springville and has friends in high places in the dnr office and is a board member of SFW, that is where I got my info, my dad took the picture.

Believe what you want, I really dont care....

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Instead of bickering about it, focus on what can be done if there is indeed a Wolf issue on the horizon.

 

[RHJ]

My brother and i came across a lone wolf in 98 or 99 while wheeling up behind Smith and Morehouse Res. We came into a meadow and out in the middle there was a wolf. He made a mad dash for the treeline. It was much bigger than a dog or coyote. He got to the trees and looked back at us. We put a scope on him and thought about tipping him over. We decided to let him go. That made our trip. They have been here longer than the fish cops let on.

 

[DOSS]

I love the fact that all of the hunters in here don't want a little competition, they would rather annihilate a species (in some instances) than to allow the herds to shrink down to a size that is manageable by the land that they live on and not artificially over sized just so people can hunt. I mean seriously it is not 'necessary' to hunt for your food in this day and age, hunting is a sport, failing to get an elk one year is not going to lead your family to starve.

 

[anderson750]

I love the fact that all of the hunters in here don't want a little competition, they would rather annihilate a species (in some instances) than to allow the herds to shrink down to a size that is manageable by the land that they live on and not artificially over sized just so people can hunt. I mean seriously it is not 'necessary' to hunt for your food in this day and age, hunting is a sport, failing to get an elk one year is not going to lead your family to starve.

There is another side to this story beyond big game hunting. A very close family to me runs 800 head of cattle on their summer range within 15 miles (as the crow flies) of sheep creek. Over the period of the summer it would not be impossible to assume that wolves could kill upwards of 75 cows or calfs. Based on current beef prices, this would be a loss of at least $100,000.

That would be devestating to their operation and there is nothing they can do to prevent it. Killing a wolf who is killing cattle is a federal offense and we all know that the DWR will not act quickly to control it.

 

[Xiled1]

There is another side to this story beyond big game hunting. A very close family to me runs 800 head of cattle on their summer range within 15 miles (as the crow flies) of sheep creek. Over the period of the summer it would not be impossible to assume that wolves could kill upwards of 75 cows or calfs. Based on current beef prices, this would be a loss of at least $100,000.

That would be devestating to their operation and there is nothing they can do to prevent it. Killing a wolf who is killing cattle is a federal offense and we all know that the DWR will not act quickly to control it.

This has always been interesting to me. If you lose $100,000 due to lost cows, whats the cost to change the way you raise them? Meaning using private, fenced in area for feeding, supplementing with corn or other food, etc. I wondered if there is some sort of happy medium.

There must be a significant cost savings grazing on public lands as compared to 100% corn fed. So if a rancher uses open range feeding and loses a percentage of the cows to wolves, does he still come out ahead?

Also, if a rancher is grazing on public lands, does he have a right to object to what the wolves are doing? Part of the reason for public lands is to preserve nature. Its a similar argument to the Acces vs No Access fight we have as wheelers. I don't think there are any easy answers. In the end, more wolves will probably mean less hunting permits and more expensive beef. Each individual will need to decide whats more important.

 

[thefirstzukman]

There is still a significant cost for free ranging cattle, it's not free. The rancher has to buy grazing rights and also has to supply water to his animals. There is a program to replace cost of lost animals if you can prove it was taken buy a predator... It has a maximum of $2000 and that won't replace some animals.

 

[DOSS]

There is still a significant cost for free ranging cattle, it's not free. The rancher has to buy grazing rights and also has to supply water to his animals. There is a program to replace cost of lost animals if you can prove it was taken buy a predator... It has a maximum of $2000 and that won't replace some animals.

Luckily the rancher has the choice to use that land or not, the wolf does not necessarily have a choice of where it lives as we have moved into its home.

I bet that if the fed raised the price of grazing leases to match that of private leases they would have more money to respond quickly to the "wolf problem", but then that just adds more $$ on the front end for the rancher and quite possible a nill end game.

 

[ID Bronco]

Grazing cattle on public land has many posetive outcomes, including revenue for the govt. Pricing it too high wouldn't do the land agencies any good. Sounds like many of you are willing to pay much higher prices for beef and sheep. More power to you, but I don't want to. I am for annialation.

 

[thefirstzukman]

Its easy for some people to poke the hornets nest about stuff they know nothing about....
I know my fair share about grazing and there is alot more to it than you would think.

 

[DOSS]

I am just thinking about this from the Wolfs point of view, They are doing what they have always done in the wild, eat big slow animals. Humans brought some really big slow animals, stuck them on their land and now have issues with the wolfs doing what they do. Why don't we go ahead and just pave the world, kill all of the cows and move onto soylent green? There is a lot more to grazing than meets the eye, there is also a lot more to killing off a species just because you want a cheap hamburger.

 

[thefirstzukman]

The human is higher on the food chain than the wolf, just like they kill we kill also. We killed them off once and I can guarantee we will do it again. Humans will just do what we do.

I have no problem with a controlled situation but some people are not happy with that, they would have the wolf be free and do what it wants and never be hunted, what about the coyote? They are a predator just the same and the state will pay you to shoot them. A wolf can have up as many as 14 pups a litter, won't take long until you start seeing big problems locally.

 

[DOSS]

The human is higher on the food chain than the wolf, just like they kill we kill also. We killed them off once and I can guarantee we will do it again. Humans will just do what we do.

I don't even think that there is any way of arguing a point with you with a statement such is that. Humans also like to commit genocide, lets just let that happen. We killed off most of the Bison, guess we should do that again too. Hey lets go ahead and instead of trying to preserve and work with nature lets just run rampant over it because that is just what Humans do. We are higher on the food chain so who cares about anything else. Humans like to mine minerals out of the ground, lets go ahead and turn every peak in Utah into something resembling the copper mine, because that is what humans do and we do what we do..

You started this with wanting to De-list the wolf, but there is no program in place for creating a sustainable management plan. so are you for management or actually just getting rid of the wolf, your pushing for De-listing first leads me to believe the ladder.