Side by sides in Moab

[Cody]

Lets put another spin on your post.

If you were to survey 100 4x4 owners at random in SLC, how many do you think ACTUALLY drives offroad?

Now survey 100 atv/sxs owners at random in SLC, how many do you think ACTUALLY drives off road?

exactly the problem. All ATV/SXS riders presumably go offroad, and a much higher percentage of them aren't educated about responsible land use. Now if you took all of those 4x4 owners that have never gone off-road, and through them out to 5 mile pass to go toy around, how many do you think would know to stick only to existing trails? Thats essentially whats happening--there are fewer barriers for Joe Normalguy to go buy a capable ATV/UHV than there are for him to buy a capable 4x4. Anyone with 5k can go and buy one and drive it wherever--even if they aren't even old enough to drive.

I'm not saying all atv/sxs riders go blasting anywhere they want, but you have to admit that 75% of the tracks you see off of trails are much narrower than a full size.

When I was coming back on the Devils Racetrack last weekend, I told my buddy to try and find a single track off of the road that was wide enough to be a full size 4x4. There were hundreds of places that people had cut off trail, cut a corner, went to the opposite side of a tree for no reason, but not a single one of them was wide enough to even be a sami.

Back in the Maze district where ATV's are not allowed, I never saw a single track going off the road. Hundreds of miles of roads and I never saw one off road tire print.

So you tell me.

 

[Shawn]

After you guy get done pissing on yourselves, note: I see one in my near future.

Reason, my ATV's beat the crap out of me. Not necessarily the ride but holding onto the handle bars on some ruff terrain.

My 4x4 costs more to build and modify than one of these cool little toys.

I can ride and talk to my wife at the same time, I like to spend time with her so that is the best reason yet...

Educated ATV's and UTV's do less damage to the trails than 4x4's do. You can bash me if you want, but I drive both so I can say what I think and what I have seen.

 

[Cody]

Educated ATV's and UTV's do less damage to the trails than 4x4's do. You can bash me if you want, but I drive both so I can say what I think and what I have seen.

I'll agree with that. I dont think any educated ATV, UHV, or 4x4 operator that stays on the trail/road causes any damage.

 

[Crinco]

I drive both as well, I have a lot of fun in both. I can see where there is concern over atv's leaving the trails, we all see it. After spending this last weekend in Moab in my buggy I have decided it is time to try running some of these trails in my RZR. Seems to me that this would be just like starting over again exploring these trails in a "less capable" vehicle and might make it a greater challenge again.
The reason I bought mine was just as shawn said, I can talk to my wife, she can see where we are going and isn't hitting her helmet on the back of my helmet at every hard stop and bump, but more than that I bought it because this last spring I seen an older couple on an ATV go over a dune and endo the machine, crushing them both. I will not go into the broken bones and expence of the Helacopter ride, but I am sure they would both have been safer on an ATV that had a roll cage around it.
SxS's are not going to be for everyone, just as motorcycles aren't either, but they are a ton of fun for me and I am seeing more and more of them every day.
As for the comments about kids under 16 riding them, yes they do, mine do too. I think a great place to start approaching the problem of ATV'ers going off the trail is in the training they require the kids (under 16) to take. Maybe they should cover the Rules and Laws better about staying on the trails, and maybe they will be better at that as they get older.

 

[Tacoma]

As far as I'm concerned, every wheeled vehicle that can be ridden, sat in, towed by, etc, is FUN.

 

[jgb]

As far as I'm concerned, every wheeled vehicle that can be ridden, sat in, towed by, etc, is FUN.

AGREED

And the name of this forum is Rocky Mountain Extreme, Utahs Rock Crawling and OFF ROAD Forum. All "off roaders" welcome.....


Good discussion though.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Lets put another spin on your post.

If you were to survey 100 4x4 owners at random in SLC, how many do you think ACTUALLY drives offroad?

Now survey 100 atv/sxs owners at random in SLC, how many do you think ACTUALLY drives off road?

Lets put a spin on it that matters. Why in the hell would we care about the land use ethic of a user that isn't a public lands user?

The fact is OHV users in general are far more disenfranchised than the 4x4 counterparts, in total numbers and percentages alike. We've estimated their are roughly 40,000 4x4 users throughout the state that would consider themselves and avid off-roader. There are well over 40,000 registered OHV's in SL County alone, yet their state associations and clubs don't match the number of the 4x4 groups. I'm not saying you have to be a member of a club or association to have a sound outdoor ethic, I know plenty of OHV users that do. I'm just saying is exponentially more difficult to deliver a tread lightly message to a group you have no contact with.

I've personally found that 75% of "rogue" users will at least temporarily correct their actions if confronted, ticketed or called out. Having done trail partrol with/without the Forest Service in American Fork Canyon I've had the opportunity to really get into it with users, some with excellent results where they ended up joining U4WDA and others where they thought we were a bunch of enviro's posing as off-roaders.

I think that one of the best ways for users to learn proper land use techniques and an outdoor ethic with tread lightly principles in mind is to learn from their peers and club members. Take for example the EJS, its renowned by even some of the major anti-motorized advocates as being a very responsible group and event. (check out Morphing Moab at the Speed of Greed for a reference on that).

 

[jgb]

It was a joke.....you know, all those poser trucks and Jeeps that cruise in SLC.....

 

[Shawn]

You know Kurt, The U4WDA could really benefit if it were to seek out and include ATV/UTV rides to involve themselves in the U4WDA. You seem to have the biggest problem with the riders that I can see in this post. If the two entities came together the U4WDA would have a large following and a larger voice for both sports.

U4WDA has done an amazing job helping educate, is it not a good idea to try and expand? A UTV is a four wheel drive vehicle and U4WDA does stand for Utah FOUR WHEEL Drive Association, yes?

Just a thought...

Now, go ahead and piss on me, I can take it...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

It was a joke.....you know, all those poser trucks and Jeeps that cruise in SLC.....

Ah, I see.

I hope you don't see this as a "pissing match" between usergroups. The OHV segment is a huge user group base and one that needs to be encouraged to get involved with the land use battle not alienated. I grew up riding dirtbikes and still get out on my bike as often as I can. I'm part of the exact crowd that needs to get more organized on several fronts!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

You know Kurt, The U4WDA could really benefit if it were to seek out and include ATV/UTV rides to involve themselves in the U4WDA.

Its been discussed in the past, but there are already state associations for those users. For example the Utah Trail Machine Association (UTMA). They are struggeling with the same manpower and budget issues that U4WDA has historically struggled with. At the end of the day, I'm no more involved with U4WDA than yourself so its something they might entertain if you presented it to them. Snowmobile and motocycles also have their club representation and associations. U4WDA has worked with them in the past, sadly due mostly to lack of resources the groups don't work together as much as they should, though it does happen.

My personal feeling is it wouldn't be all that beneficial to combine the two. Let their specific Associations work on the issues that are user specific and work together on the issues facing all users. U4WDA would really have to dilute its current mission to cover the ATV groups for example, that in turn could force it to loose some 4x4 members. If human resources were abundant on behalf of U4WDA and the UTMA I don't think it would ever be a consideration.

You seem to have the biggest problem with the riders that I can see in this post. If the two entities came together the U4WDA would have a large following and a larger voice for both sports.

I seem to have the biggest problem? I fail to see anywhere in this thread where I've stated anything as such? I've stated in the past that one of the smartest moves the 4x4 crowd could make is to seperate themselves from the OHV groups, but it was purely a "bomb dropping" conversation and I don't honestly feel a selfish move while beneficial would be the right thing to do. Realize there has been talk of working with the anti-motorized to designating more areas to street-legal vehicles only (such designations exist in quite a few locations in Utah including Timpanooke up AF Canyon), its never gone beyond the suggestion as its not the right way to approach the issue. The right approach is to getting more than 5% of the total motorized users involved to some degree.

Now, go ahead and piss on me, I can take it...

I guess my comments are being read a bit differently than intended?

 

[Tacoma]

This has been something I try to do all the time: because at a minimum, lots of those UTV's and ATV's are being transported to the trail in a four wheel drive TRUCK.

I'd love to see something like a land-use SEMA: everyone aligned for the benefit of all.

On the other hand, we have USA-ALL, which can and should be the group you're envisioning.

You know Kurt, The U4WDA could really benefit if it were to seek out and include ATV/UTV rides to involve themselves in the U4WDA. You seem to have the biggest problem with the riders that I can see in this post. If the two entities came together the U4WDA would have a large following and a larger voice for both sports.

U4WDA has done an amazing job helping educate, is it not a good idea to try and expand? A UTV is a four wheel drive vehicle and U4WDA does stand for Utah FOUR WHEEL Drive Association, yes?

Just a thought...

Now, go ahead and piss on me, I can take it...

 

[STPPINZ]

I was surprised to see this thread start for 2 pages as a "are side x sides for you" thread to a land use thread. Anyway...I think there are a few variables that are being missed in this discussion.
First, which is the most off based, it has been perceived that if you are associated with or a member of a forum, website, club or other 4x4 organization you automatically are a land use angle and have never strayed off the beaten path. Do you really believe that? Or did I misunderstand your comments.
Second, I think I see just as much or more atv/utv riders that wouldn't know how to drive off a dirt road let alone a trail if they were forced to. I was invited to ride with the Northern Utah ATV riders a few weeks ago to Overlook Pass. There was about 50 rigs (to many) and they were all driving like old church ladies. Even the people in UTV's. I think that is a way higher percentage than riders who go off the trail.

Overall, it is the MINORITY who is ruining it for the MAJORITY in all off-roading groups, motorized or not. It is asinine to assign blame more on one group or another. You have your bad apples in every barrel.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...First, which is the most off based, it has been perceived that if you are associated with or a member of a forum, website, club or other 4x4 organization you automatically are a land use angle and have never strayed off the beaten path. Do you really believe that? Or did I misunderstand your comments.

You didn't say who's comments you are referring to so I'll assume mine. You misunderstood, simple as that. I clearly stated that there there isn't a 100% correlation between having a good outdoor ethic and being part of a club, however it is the best tool we have to reach audiences. Quote my comments if you had an issue with a particular comment please.

Overall, it is the MINORITY who is ruining it for the MAJORITY in all off-roading groups, motorized or not. It is asinine to assign blame more on one group or another. You have your bad apples in every barrel...

Agreed for the most part. Again your not going to find the contrary in my comments. Though I know for a fact there is a much higher percentage of "rogue" off-trail users in the ATV/OHV crowds, its is still a small minority of the total users. I stand by my assumptions, I've logged nearly 3500 miles on Utah's trails this year, in nearly every county in the state, I see what I see and my work with land managers has been very telling over the years. This minority whomever they may be or whatever they choose to ride/drive are effectively ruining it for the rest of us.

My point is that we need a way to reach these users and if not them directly a friend or riding buddy. I beleive that through peer influence they will realize the harm they are causing as most don't do it out of malice but rather ignorance. This goes for dirt bikers, ATV riders, SxS users and every 4x4 enthusiast on the trail.

As far as being on topic, the first post had this at the bottom "They look like fun, long as they stay on the trail", looks pretty on topic to me? I don't read any of the replies and consider them bashing or blaming in any fashion, rather trying to address the actual situation.

 

[jgb]

Cruiseroutfit wrote (italic):

They look like they would be fun for a short period, I honestly think their popularity is a fad, time will tell.

ATV/UTV sales have gone up over the past decade. No fad lasts a decade.

For my uses they are completely impractical, not steet-legal, tiny payload, not up to par for self-supported travel.

To each his own.

There are some serious concerns with any ATV subgroup including side by sides when it comes to land use and a sound outdoor/offroad ethic.

All offroading subgroups have rogue users be it atv's, utvs, dirtbikers, full sized.

.....and its a general concensus that the anti-motorized cohorts have much less issues with street-legal full-sized vehicles (such as a Jeep or pickup) than they do with "noisy", "out of control", "uninsured" ATV's. So many factors behind this influence obviously, legally allowing under-16 operators, etc.

Many of those street legal full size vehicle do not see any "off road" so why have issues with them? As far as "noisy", go to any "full size" off road forum and there will always be a section on exhausts, filled with "how can I make my truck louder" questions. As far as "out of control", how about those lifted poser trucks weaving in and out of traffic in SLC/I 80/ I 15 looking like they are about to tip over. As far as "out of control" how about those lifted big tired buggies and Jeeps that bounce around wildly trying to go over and come down an obstacle. As far as "out of control" how about those mudders that love to spin deep ruts in the trails, then throw mud all over the road when they are finished.
As far as "uninsured" you are right.
As far as the underaged driving, I agree but that comes down to the parents.

Total guestimate here, but if you were to survey 100 4x4 users at a random trailhead, my guess is 60 of them would be active to some degree with a club or forum (such as RME). 80 of them would at least be familiar with a different club or the U4WDA. The ATV users are seemingly far more disenfranchised, take the same number (100) of ATV users and my guess is that under 40 would even realize their are clubs in Utah for ATV's, likely less?

Addressed that in post #38, equal number of atv/utv forums as full sized forums.

The fact is OHV users in general are far more disenfranchised than the 4x4 counterparts, in total numbers and percentages alike.

Could you back that fact up with graphs, charts, data, statisics?

We've estimated their are roughly 40,000 4x4 users throughout the state that would consider themselves an avid off-roader. There are well over 40,000 registered OHV's in SL County alone, yet their state associations and clubs don't match the number of the 4x4 groups.

I would estimate that a large portion of those 40,000 registered OHV's are for ranching, farming, work, and never see public trails.

Though I know for a fact there is a much higher percentage of "rogue" off-trail users in the ATV/OHV crowds, its is still a small minority of the total users. I stand by my assumptions, I've logged nearly 3500 miles on Utah's trails this year, in nearly every county in the state, I see what I see and my work with land managers has been very telling over the years. This minority whomever they may be or whatever they choose to ride/drive are effectively ruining it for the rest of us.

You started with the word fact and then changed to the word assumption. Which is it, a fact (back up with data please) or your assumption/opinion based on "what you have seen" and "what you have heard".
As stated earlier, all subgroups have rogue riders and ARE ruining it for everybody else.

---------

Now for some of MY observations out in the West Desert:

I believe most of the trash (bottles, cans, ammo brass) are left by hunters, and people that go to an area once and then leave.

I believe that a lot of off trail atv use is done by hunters.

I have seen exhausts, hub caps, and other numerous "full sized" parts strewn about. I have yet to see parts of an ATV/UTV strewn about.
I have even seen auto engines dumped, have never seen an atv engine dumped.

The deep ruts every spring in the trails are from full sized vehicles.

No one can say a 2,000-3,000 lb truck/Jeep can do less damage to a trail than a 700-800 lb ATV/UTV.

I have seen way too many children riding oversized atv's and two up riding on single seater atv's (mostly parent w/child or two children).

I have seen too many dirt bikers and sport atv riders take off like a bat out of hell at Five Mile Pass across the open area, an accident waiting to happen.


I have yet to see a Hummer out four wheeling in the West Desert

-------

This thread seemed to have taken an "us versus them" slant. I am both so I really have no preconcieved bias or prejudice. I have been "off roading" my whole adult life, from an old Jeep CJ7 to my desert truck to mountain biking and hiking to my buggy.

 

[Cody]

First, you accuse him of going away from his point and not using quantifiable data, then you post this meandering turd that isn't even used to back up any point.

Many of those street legal full size vehicle do not see any "off road" so why have issues with them? As far as "noisy", go to any "full size" off road forum and there will always be a section on exhausts, filled with "how can I make my truck louder" questions. As far as "out of control", how about those lifted poser trucks weaving in and out of traffic in SLC/I 80/ I 15 looking like they are about to tip over. As far as "out of control" how about those lifted big tired buggies and Jeeps that bounce around wildly trying to go over and come down an obstacle. As far as "out of control" how about those mudders that love to spin deep ruts in the trails, then throw mud all over the road when they are finished.

What a poser truck on the road has to do with this debate is beyond me. If we’re talking about traffic scofflaws why not bring up those noisy rice burners that have gay decals, soup can exhausts, and weave in and out of traffic? Oh, that’s right! Because it has nothing to do with this topic.

Regardless, YOU brought up the point that a higher percentage of UHV/ATV owners go use them offroad, not him. Then, when he uses your point against you by comparing actual estimations that have been done regarding the # of full size 4x4 owners who go offroad vs. the number of ATV's registered, you claim fallacy? Really?

Then, when speaking about the related IMPACT of those numbers, he uses personal experience to back up his claim. I don't think you'll find a single person on this board, or anywhere else, that has spent more days and miles in the Utah backcountry this year than Kurt, and you definitely won't find a more informed person when it comes to land use.

Your point about ruts and the impact of a heavier vehicle is valid, but I would MUCH rather see some ruts on an existing road, than a maze of 52" wide tracks going every which way off the road. Wouldn’t you?

Until YOU post some quantifiable data, or even credible personal testimony about your claims (not sure how you'd go about getting that credibility) all you have to go with is, well, your opinion which isn’t worth a lot around here. No offense, just a fact.

It's funny that you would waste your breath arguing this point here, when all you have to do is dig up any of the dozens of sltrib or ksl articles regarding land use and roadless initiatives to see exactly what the public sentiment towards ATV's is. I’ve spent thousands of words defending ALL motorized access on those topics, and I don’t recall any ATV/UHV advocate posting a single word in their defense. Where is your organization on that one? To be fair 4x4's get the bad rap too and we must all work together to keep trails open, but trust me the public backlash is much heavier towards ATV's irrespective of proper justification. It's just a fact that is not supported by quantifiable data, but if you have ever been involved in land use debates it’s a fact you’ll become quite frustrated with at some point.

 

[Greg]

My intention wasn't to create drama between the 2 usergroups with this thread, I apologize if it has. My comment about staying on the trail is still valid and goes for 4x4's, motorcycles, ATV, UTV's and even mountain bikes.

I think there is truth between both sides of the argument, but in the end there are always bad apples in each group who will ruin the work of all the environmentally-conscious public land users. Rather than tear each other down we need to work together and help educate people. If you see a 4x4 off a trail, kindly correct them. If you see a ATV/UTV off trail, kindly correct them. Pick up as much trash as you come across, rather than decide who left it there, then just cruise on past it. The people who want to shut down our lands to mechanical access just love to see us fighting against each other. If we're going to maintain access to our land, we need to work together, not against each other.

Now go write letters about re-opening Coyote Canyon.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...ATV/UTV sales have gone up over the past decade. No fad lasts a decade...

Lets stay in context here. My comments per the fad were purely related to side by sides. And they have not been selling in masses for more than a couple of years.

...All offroading subgroups have rogue users be it atv's, utvs, dirtbikers, full sized...

I've said this over and over? This is no revelation?

...Many of those street legal full size vehicle do not see any "off road" so why have issues with them?

I don't know why we need to keep hammering this out. NONE of my comments, suggestions or theories have ANYTHING to do with 4x4's that are NOT part of our usergroup. I'll get out the crayons if needed.

...As far as "noisy", go to any "full size" off road forum and there will always be a section on exhausts, filled with "how can I make my truck louder" questions. As far as "out of control", how about those lifted poser trucks weaving in and out of traffic in SLC/I 80/ I 15 looking like they are about to tip over. As far as "out of control" how about those lifted big tired buggies and Jeeps that bounce around wildly trying to go over and come down an obstacle. As far as "out of control" how about those mudders that love to spin deep ruts in the trails, then throw mud all over the road when they are finished.

Your seemingly grasping at straws. I'm not telling you they are "noisy", I'm not telling you they are "out of control". I'm telling you those are the EXACT comments the anti-OHV crowds use to describe their use on public lands.

...Addressed that in post #38, equal number of atv/utv forums as full sized forums...

Remind me how those forums are teaching Tread Lightly principles and a sound outdoor ethic on the ground here in Utah?

...Could you back that fact up with graphs, charts, data, statisics?...

Sure, but I'm more willing to back it up with my personal experiences working with land managers, ATV user groups, 4x4 user groups and RMP processes for the last 5 years. I stand by it. Besides being a "contributing" member of a bunch of forums with our out of the box buggy, what is your background in the land use scene of Utah? Ever been to a RMP meeting and counted the number of OHV users, mountain bikers or WAG groups? Ever planned a service project and invited the OHV groups? I hate for this to turn into a pissing match but if your going to present yourself as an expert on the subject we might as well hear your back ground.

...I would estimate that a large portion of those 40,000 registered OHV's are for ranching, farming, work, and never see public trails.

SL County doesn't have that many farms. I'd bet under 1000 of those if that. I say if that as most OHV's or even vehicles used excusively on a farm wouldn't ever be registered. Registering an OHV is for use on public lands.

...You started with the word fact and then changed to the word assumption. Which is it, a fact (back up with data please) or your assumption/opinion based on "what you have seen" and "what you have heard"...

Fact: Through my extensive travels in Utah, rogue OHV tracks have outnumbered rogue 4x4 tracks 20:1. Is it a big surprise, no, they make up far more users in some areas than 4x4's, for example 5MP or AFC.

Fact: An ATV/SxS user is far less likely to be a member of a club or association than a 4x4 user. Before you ask, I am only referring to 4x4's as part of our usergroup


Lets talk about you jgb, what associations or clubs are you a member of? How are YOU doing your part to educate your fellow users?

 

[Gravy]

whatever happened to united we stand, devided we fall

I personally like them, the more people we get out on the trails and educated the more pull we have over land use issues.

that being said. they are worth 2times more than my jeep. so you know these people have some disposable income. How do we funnel some of that into land use?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

whatever happened to united we stand, devided we fall..

This has never been a conversation about dividing? At least not from my vantage point. This has been about getting an audience with those members and the fact as its harder and its relation to the increased number of rogue users in said usergroup.