Political So now what

[Pike2350]

Well yea, he's not currently Pres.
But the fact remains that there are a lot of highly suspicious events that happened that night, no matter what any "authority" says otherwise. Still doesn't make the idea of rampant fraud not true.

Nor does it make it fact

 

[Herzog]

Nor does it make it fact

Right. Nor does it make it false. And so on and so forth.

 

[Unimog]

It's pretty tough to prove a negative. Still stands that everyone has seen the graphs, election authorities have explained what caused it, and either no suit was brought by anyone claiming abnormalities or the law suit claim could not be proved. I get that it might be possible for a judge and investigation officers in each of these 3 to 6 states to be corrupt. In the end, some folks will just trust their hunches. I'll trust the reporting public and American justice system.

 

[Pike2350]

But the fact remains that there are a lot of highly suspicious events that happened that night, no matter what any "authority" says otherwise. Still doesn't make the idea of rampant fraud not true.

I don't think most people disagree that there is fraud in voting (on both sides) However, most people (outside of Trump and his die-hard voters) come to the conclusion that in was not on a scale anywhere near large/coordinated enough to swing the election in favor of Trump. Trump and his voters keep looking for that smoking gun, they keep pointing to obscure things and videos and pictures as somehow it being proof that large scale fraud happened. Yet, will completely ignore the phone call of Trump actually asking Georgia to find more votes for him, I mean, he's just asking right, no hidden meaning there right?

The point of it is, most people do not believe the election was stolen. All of the "proof" that the Trump people have claimed to have, has amounted to nothing. It's just a bunch of cooks and crazy attention whores trying to get in favor with their king. Sydney Powell, Mike Lindell both claimed to have solid proof, and yet nothing. Even Sydney Powell said, no one in their right mind would have believed what she said. After 3 years of absolutely nothing, other then somewhat questionable pics, graphs or videos, Trump and his die hard voters will continue to speak of the election being stolen as fact.

 

[Trate D]

This all seems to echo the constant voice of dems and media saying trump is guilty of everything under the sun. But he’s still a free man? Yes, he has court battles ahead of him (Conveniently during prime campaign time.) being pushed by the very people he’s running against. It’s a political theater by both sides to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves instead of demanding accountability from all government and 3 letter agencies.

Bread and circuses

I really fear for the future of the country and what’s ahead for us and future generations. At some point Americans are going to have to unite in numbers and demand changes to be made.

 

[Jesser04]

This all seems to echo the constant voice of dems and media saying trump is guilty of everything under the sun. But he’s still a free man? Yes, he has court battles ahead of him (Conveniently during prime campaign time.) being pushed by the very people he’s running against. It’s a political theater by both sides to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves instead of demanding accountability from all government and 3 letter agencies.

Bread and circuses

I really fear for the future of the country and what’s ahead for us and future generations. At some point Americans are going to have to unite in numbers and demand changes to be made.

This 1000%

 

[UNSTUCK]

I really fear for the future of the country and what’s ahead for us and future generations. At some point Americans are going to have to unite in numbers and demand changes to be made.

So do I. But in today's world, nothing will happen. Who would join forces to fight in a civil war today? 18-40 year old men? No way.

 

[Cody]

So do I. But in today's world, nothing will happen. Who would join forces to fight in a civil war today? 18-40 year old men? No way.

We have the right to bear arms, but unfortunately we don't have the right to bear tanks or highly lethal weaponized drones. I don't think a 3d printed AR mount for the Overlanding drone is going to get very far.

I just personally think our "armed civilians" aren't as intimidating to well armed would be oppressors as we like to think. When the constitution was written, it was apples to apples. Now it's apples to... Something way larger, deadlier, and immune to apples.

 

[jeeper]

We have the right to bear arms, but unfortunately we don't have the right to bear tanks or highly lethal weaponized drones. I don't think a 3d printed AR mount for the Overlanding drone is going to get very far.

I just personally think our "armed civilians" aren't as intimidating to well armed would be oppressors as we like to think. When the constitution was written, it was apples to apples. Now it's apples to... Something way larger, deadlier, and immune to apples.

I disagree. I don't see the government blanket bombing us. I think that would turn ALL citizens against them, not just the 1/2 that already are.

I think they would have to send in army reserves like they do during riots. And if we were to a point to shooting it out with Army/citizens, I would think a decent portion of the army and police (typically blue collar folk) would switch sides.

I also think that the people would be targeting the politicians, not just fighting in the streets.. which would be significantly more impactful as to the results.

 

[Spork]

We have the right to bear arms, but unfortunately we don't have the right to bear tanks or highly lethal weaponized drones. I don't think a 3d printed AR mount for the Overlanding drone is going to get very far.

I just personally think our "armed civilians" aren't as intimidating to well armed would be oppressors as we like to think. When the constitution was written, it was apples to apples. Now it's apples to... Something way larger, deadlier, and immune to apples.

Inert nuclear missile found in US man's garage

The device did not have any deadly warhead, and is "basically a gas tank for rocket fuel", police say.

www.bbc.com

Dream big...

 

[Houndoc]

I think one wild card that is hard to put a number on is the how many of the inner city people that have been affected by all the migrants who are eating up resources and having federal money thrown at them. You won't find any of the reporting on how many of these people are saying that they are going to vote for Trump on MSNBC, CNN or any of the liberal media. Will they show up and actually vote........only election day will tell the story if Trump and Biden are the nominee's

I think the GOP is (as too often the case) once again proving they are more interested in campaigning than actually governing. The senate has been negotiating major boarder security and immigration policy that includes most of what the Republicans want (in exchange for Ukraine war support) but suddenly the votes are drying up because Trump came out against it because it could help Biden.

They would rather continue chaos than work with the opposition. Reality that is why they do poorly in Congressional elections outside the die hard red states.

Just like their "repeal and replace Obamacare" of 2016 never even lead to a bill in committee despite holding presidency, House and Senate.

This all seems to echo the constant voice of dems and media saying trump is guilty of everything under the sun. But he’s still a free man? Yes, he has court battles ahead of him (Conveniently during prime campaign time.) being pushed by the very people he’s running against. It’s a political theater by both sides to keep us busy fighting amongst ourselves instead of demanding accountability from all government and 3 letter agencies.

Bread and circuses

I really fear for the future of the country and what’s ahead for us and future generations. At some point Americans are going to have to unite in numbers and demand changes to be made.

Of course his supporters are not going to push for charges (although some Senators used the possibility are reasons not to vote to impeach after the Jan 6th incident.) The fact that the ones outside the judiciary that publicly support Trump being charged are the same ones that don't want him re-elected does not make them illegitimate.

 

[Houndoc]

I enjoy all the political banter to a certain extent. I'm a caucus attending Republican - a conservative with an independent lean. With all due respect, if I waltz in there this year and hear people still complaining about how the last election was stolen, I will likely walk right out. That is not a platform I can support. My take is there has been 4 years to prove the validity of any claims of any of this in the courts and any other credible venues. If the best they can do is complain about how corrupt the entire judicial system is, I'm not buying it.
I'm really not looking forward to the general election!

I am with you there. I have served as state delegate twice but the outcome of this year's election may well determine if I keep my voter registration as Republican.

 

[Cody]

Inert nuclear missile found in US man's garage

The device did not have any deadly warhead, and is "basically a gas tank for rocket fuel", police say.

www.bbc.com

Dream big...

Probably intended to fuel a kill-dozer.

 

[Stephen]

At some point Americans are going to have to unite in numbers and demand changes to be made.

I feel like I've been beating this drum since my high school debate days; are you voting in local elections? If you're not, then you're wasting everyone's time complaining about "demanding change" because that's where it starts. We have elections literally every year for something and essentially a national plebiscite every four years when we vote for President. Those are your chances to "unite in numbers and demand change".

Voting is how we effect change in the United States.

The fact of the matter is that only around 60% of registered voters actually cast ballots in Presidential elections, and its progressively lower in other elections. That's only 70 million people out of a population of over 300 million at best. Most people don't care who is running the show as long as they have a job, a place to sleep, and food on the table.

Watershed elections, think 1932 or 1980, are generally preceded by significant social and economic unrest and the party that is swept into power has been headed by a charismatic person who is campaigning on a message that despite her problems, America is great and we have a glorious future ahead of us if we work together in spite of our differences. Could 2024 be a watershed year? There has been social unrest. There have been economic problems. But the party out of power is headed by a man who does not see America as a great nation, who looks back instead of forward, and hates three quarters of the electorate. That's not a recipe for success, or at least that's not a recipe for a mandate which will bring about radical change at the Federal level.

I disagree. I don't see the government blanket bombing us. I think that would turn ALL citizens against them, not just the 1/2 that already are.

I think they would have to send in army reserves like they do during riots. And if we were to a point to shooting it out with Army/citizens, I would think a decent portion of the army and police (typically blue collar folk) would switch sides.

I also think that the people would be targeting the politicians, not just fighting in the streets.. which would be significantly more impactful as to the results.

Does anyone really understand what the consequences of taking up arms against the United States would be? No. Look at what happened in the Civil War. Our country was devastated and it took more than a decade for us to really get back on our feet. And parts of the South? Shit, more than a hundred years to really pull level with the rest of the country in terms of GDP and PPP. Is that worth it? Even if "we won", our country would be shattered. Your nice cushy life would be over. Your children's future would be gone. The United States position as the preeminent world power would vanish and be supplanted by China. Most Americans may not realize that consciously, but subconsciously they realize that their life would be unrecognizable if they did.

There are not 150 million people that are pissed off enough at the government to start shooting politicians in the street. In reality, there probably aren't even 150,000. This is the realm of Amon Bundy and the like. People may agree with the sentiment of people like that, but scant few are willing to drive up to a bird refuge in Oregon and start shooting at Federal agents.

Educate yourself on the issues. Talk about the issues with your friends and neighbors and build a consensus among your cohort. Vote in every election. This is how you make a difference, no other solution exists to make meaningful, lasting change for the better in our country.

 

[anderson750]

I think the GOP is (as too often the case) once again proving they are more interested in campaigning than actually governing. The senate has been negotiating major boarder security and immigration policy that includes most of what the Republicans want (in exchange for Ukraine war support) but suddenly the votes are drying up because Trump came out against it because it could help Biden.

They would rather continue chaos than work with the opposition. Reality that is why they do poorly in Congressional elections outside the die hard red states.

Just like their "repeal and replace Obamacare" of 2016 never even lead to a bill in committee despite holding presidency, House and Senate.

Politics plays a role in everything. If the coin was flipped and this was Republicans doing something for a President, the Democrats would be doing what they could to stop it. Lets get beyond the politics and just look at the bill and how it does nothing to stop the massive influx of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Yes it is illegal. For anybody who gets offended by calling them Illegal Immigrants instead of undocumented aliens......spare me your tears.

Crossing the border Illegally is a different crisis than worrying about how to allow these people to migrate to this country legally. I won't argue that our immigration system has flaws and needs changes. Immigration into the United States should not be easy. It should be a thorough process so that we know the people who are coming here are good people. I guarantee you there have been a lot of people cross the border over the last 3 years that are not coming here because they are looking for opportunity in this country. There has been 8 million people cross the border in the last 3 years.......how many do we not know about. Lets assume that 0.5% of them are coming here for other reasons.......That is 40,000 people. We have 1.3 million active military right now. How does it make you feel if there was the possibility that there could possibly be groups of people that add up to 5% of our active military that are here to do harm to our country and we just let them walk in and released them?

This bill has so many back doors to it that it is hard to call major reform. When illegal border crossings reach a 5,000 in a day, then the can choose to close the border for that day..........key word .......choose. When it reaches 8500 the president must close the border......but I have yet to find any details on exactly what it means to close the border. Do they tell people to go and stay in Mexico for the night and we will see you tomorrow, do they retain them then let them loose the next day?????????

It enables people to more easily claim amnesty without any real valid reason or proof of fear of their life by their government if they go back.....which is not much different than it is now. It still does nothing to vet any of these thousands of people who are crossing the border and from what I can see, makes it easier for them to get work Visa's without any vetting.

Many GOP came out against it after the printed document came out.

This bill is nothing but a pig with lipstick and pearls to get funding for Ukraine and Isreal. Meanwhile, we are going to see more instances of what happened with those cops in New York......and probably much worse.

I mean no offence when I ask this question.....Did your wife come here through the legal immigration process? If so, I am sure it was a lengthy process, but it was worth it.

 

[jeeper]

Does anyone really understand what the consequences of taking up arms against the United States would be? No. Look at what happened in the Civil War. Our country was devastated and it took more than a decade for us to really get back on our feet. And parts of the South? Shit, more than a hundred years to really pull level with the rest of the country in terms of GDP and PPP. Is that worth it? Even if "we won", our country would be shattered. Your nice cushy life would be over. Your children's future would be gone. The United States position as the preeminent world power would vanish and be supplanted by China. Most Americans may not realize that consciously, but subconsciously they realize that their life would be unrecognizable if they did.

There are not 150 million people that are pissed off enough at the government to start shooting politicians in the street. In reality, there probably aren't even 150,000. This is the realm of Amon Bundy and the like. People may agree with the sentiment of people like that, but scant few are willing to drive up to a bird refuge in Oregon and start shooting at Federal agents.

Educate yourself on the issues. Talk about the issues with your friends and neighbors and build a consensus among your cohort. Vote in every election. This is how you make a difference, no other solution exists to make meaningful, lasting change for the better in our country.

I'm not advocating for it.. BUT if we are to a point where we really do need to stand up against a government, life is already in the crapper.
If the government is ready to bomb and tank my town, my kids already have no future.

Your line and my line may be very far from where we are.. but for people (like Bundy) who honestly felt like the government were out to get them, I support their effort.

This is an iconic photo, IMO. It is literally the the moment armed citizens backed an armed government down. It shows the reason for the 2A. It shows citizens have a breaking point, and are willing to put their own life on the line to preserve others freedoms.

I don't agree with Bundy.. but I like that they (and people) stood up and won, even if it was short lived.

 

[Cody]

Isn't the argument for gun reform that criminals will find a way to get guns regardless of laws against them? Can't that similar argument be made for immigration? I also would say that sexual predators/deviants and bathrooms is the same thing. A criminal is going to do what they want regardless. More barbed wire would keep the honest people honest, but would it keep the dishonest people honest?

I agree that the larger umbrella solution would be a vastly overhauled immigration system that allows for a more streamlined process. I don't know that putting up a bigger, sharper wall, and covering your eyes to pretend they aren't there is the best solution. Because you know what? This country needs cheap labor and there are lots of people that would be willing to come here and fill that role. People bitch about why food and service prices have skyrocketed, well it's because labor has skyrocketed. The cost of labor in kitchen work has doubled in 4 years. My raw material costs (hops in particular) are about to double with CY24 because Washington passed labor laws that prevent the farmers from working laborers more than 10 hours in a day (actually, it might be 8 even) and like 50 hours in a week. They can't get the migrant workforce (which they legally bring in with temporary work visas) to agree to come because they can't get enough hours to make it worth their time to move to Washington for 3 months. So now the farmers have to pay twice as much for probably half as efficient labor. Hop prices go up, beer prices go up, Hickey's happy meter go down.

So people don't want unskilled laborers to come here, but they also don't want to pay $14 for an Apollo Burger. Shit man, let's put a convenience tax on fast food, agricultural products, and other similar goods that are dependent upon unskilled labor and use that money to offset the additional cost of hiring non-migrant labor and to better enforce the borders.

The real truth is there will likely never be any real change because the system is working exactly how it was designed to work (us vs them, red vs blue, and the ruling class with built in mechanisms to preserve their power) and people are too afraid of change.

 

[anderson750]

Isn't the argument for gun reform that criminals will find a way to get guns regardless of laws against them? Can't that similar argument be made for immigration? I also would say that sexual predators/deviants and bathrooms is the same thing. A criminal is going to do what they want regardless. More barbed wire would keep the honest people honest, but would it keep the dishonest people honest?

I agree that the larger umbrella solution would be a vastly overhauled immigration system that allows for a more streamlined process. I don't know that putting up a bigger, sharper wall, and covering your eyes to pretend they aren't there is the best solution. Because you know what? This country needs cheap labor and there are lots of people that would be willing to come here and fill that role. People bitch about why food and service prices have skyrocketed, well it's because labor has skyrocketed. The cost of labor in kitchen work has doubled in 4 years. My raw material costs (hops in particular) are about to double with CY24 because Washington passed labor laws that prevent the farmers from working laborers more than 10 hours in a day (actually, it might be 8 even) and like 50 hours in a week. They can't get the migrant workforce (which they legally bring in with temporary work visas) to agree to come because they can't get enough hours to make it worth their time to move to Washington for 3 months. So now the farmers have to pay twice as much for probably half as efficient labor. Hop prices go up, beer prices go up, Hickey's happy meter go down.

So people don't want unskilled laborers to come here, but they also don't want to pay $14 for an Apollo Burger. Shit man, let's put a convenience tax on fast food, agricultural products, and other similar goods that are dependent upon unskilled labor and use that money to offset the additional cost of hiring non-migrant labor and to better enforce the borders.

The real truth is there will likely never be any real change because the system is working exactly how it was designed to work (us vs them, red vs blue, and the ruling class with built in mechanisms to preserve their power) and people are too afraid of change.

I am not against cheap migrant labor. I believe a lot of these people are coming for opportunities that America offers........many are coming because they have been told there is free support for them, some are coming because they are being sent here. I wouldn't be so wound up about all of this if the .gov was doing anything reasonable to vet all these people and not just doing a catch and release. Sure the whole catch and release has been going on for a long time through different administrations, but not at the levels that we have seen in the last 3 years. Its not because things in America are so much better than they have ever been......we have an administration that has basically said, our border is open, come while you can, we are funneling billions into NGO's to provide for you.

 

[Pike2350]

Well yea, he's not currently Pres.
But the fact remains that there are a lot of highly suspicious events that happened that night, no matter what any "authority" says otherwise. Still doesn't make the idea of rampant fraud not true.

Edit: further more - charts like this are like a version of the Zapruder film that has the second shooter plainly in half of the damn frame.

I found this pretty appropriate considering all the supposed rampant fraud

Far-right group Project Veritas admits it had ‘no evidence’ of voter fraud in Pennsylvania

Political agitator James O’Keefe and organization he once led had spread false claims of fraud at post office during 2020 election

www.yahoo.com

I also know it will be brushed off with "Yeah, but.........." "It's part of the trial that they have to claim it" or "this doesn't mean it didn't happen" or any other number of excuses and deflections that will come from the Trump side.

 

[Herzog]

I found this pretty appropriate considering all the supposed rampant fraud

Far-right group Project Veritas admits it had ‘no evidence’ of voter fraud in Pennsylvania

Political agitator James O’Keefe and organization he once led had spread false claims of fraud at post office during 2020 election

www.yahoo.com

I also know it will be brushed off with "Yeah, but.........." "It's part of the trial that they have to claim it" or "this doesn't mean it didn't happen" or any other number of excuses and deflections that will come from the Trump side.

If the article starts with "Far-Right..." then you bet your ass I'm not gonna read of believe a word it says. Propaganda built right into the headline. No thanks. You'd do the same about articles that I would post so it really gets us nowhere