That's fine, you can do whatever you want, I'm not saying it's not allowed nor will I ever. I'm not in charge of YOU. I'm in charge of ME. I'm saying don't pretend to have the authority to make others do it. Hell, you can wear a full on haz-mat suit if you desire. Have fun with it. I don't care. Just don't try to make others do it. That's been my point. I will also voice my opinion on how stupid I think all of it is. I reserve that right. How personal you decide to take my words is on you and you alone.
Coronavirus
- Thread starter Kevin B.
- Start date
That's fine, you can do whatever you want, I'm not saying it's not allowed nor will I ever. I'm not in charge of YOU. I'm in charge of ME. I'm saying don't pretend to have the authority to make others do it. Hell, you can wear a full on haz-mat suit if you desire. Have fun with it. I don't care. Just don't try to make others do it. That's been my point. I will also voice my opinion on how stupid I think all of it is. I reserve that right. How personal you decide to take my words is on you and you alone.
Troop92
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Layton, UT
I've posted many times in this thread that I'm fine with others choosing for themselves so long as they don't begrudge me the same opportunity. I didn't say you should go out and buy a faceshield. I was merely curious why that equates to being fearful, as your post stated. Those ideas, to me, are not mutually exclusive.
I know you didn't, I was generalizing to make my point. I could have clarified that better (typing while on a slack call haha)
Troop92
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Layton, UT
If you go to the BMJ website, the British Medical Journal, the same group that penned the 2015 article referenced heavily in the video responded back in light of Covid-19. They expounded upon the performance of cloth masks, potential outcomes in the research based on the control group, and said they don't condone health workers working unprotected. Additionally, their research indicated that cloth masks should be avoided in a clinical setting where possible.
The video discredits masks in turn for working on obesity, heart disease, etc (co-morbidities) and even diet. Interesting because he's a fitness coach. It's hawking good health as a replacement for prevention and medical research.
There are others from the BMJ, Mayo Clinic, John's Hopkins Univ, and other journals that back up the use of masks. As you've said, do your research yourself and come to your own conclusions.
The video discredits masks in turn for working on obesity, heart disease, etc (co-morbidities) and even diet. Interesting because he's a fitness coach. It's hawking good health as a replacement for prevention and medical research.
There are others from the BMJ, Mayo Clinic, John's Hopkins Univ, and other journals that back up the use of masks. As you've said, do your research yourself and come to your own conclusions.
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My last flight home I was amazed how many people were wearing face shields on the plane. Isn't the face shield mostly to "protect" you if you're talking to people or people are mouth breathing on you in relative close proximity?
Dude in front of me wore a respirator, safety goggles and a face shield for the entire 6 hour flight with no one else in his row, no one in the row in front of him and just me in the row behind him.
Though thinking about it, i'd probably wear protective equipment around me as well.
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Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
I think most people seem to mistake that generally the mask is recommended/mandated to keep YOU from spreading it...not to keep you from getting it. Some studies shave supposedly shown that it can help you not get it by limiting the intake of the virus...but I'm not so sure about it. It's mainly meant to keep those that may be asymptomatic from spreading it without knowing it.
As for the video about masks....sorry anytime I read something with "i was left speechless" or "I couldn't believe the findings" or other such phrases and it wants me or suggests I click a link... no thanks. It's click bait and I am immediately skeptical of their reports/findings.
As for kids not getting/spreading it. They find kids contract it less...and a big part of the speculation on that is that kids tend to play and interact very differently than adults. Kids dont talk or interact face to face for long periods. They tend to run and move around a lot....not sit face to face talking. Plus they tend to be outdoors more....so that is one speculation as to why
As for the video about masks....sorry anytime I read something with "i was left speechless" or "I couldn't believe the findings" or other such phrases and it wants me or suggests I click a link... no thanks. It's click bait and I am immediately skeptical of their reports/findings.
As for kids not getting/spreading it. They find kids contract it less...and a big part of the speculation on that is that kids tend to play and interact very differently than adults. Kids dont talk or interact face to face for long periods. They tend to run and move around a lot....not sit face to face talking. Plus they tend to be outdoors more....so that is one speculation as to why
- Location
- The Village of Kay
Here are my rambling thoughts. They may or may not make sense.
There is real fear surrounding this virus, and it feels like this thread goes around and around in circles (62 pages and counting). It obviously conjures deep rooted feelings and opinions.
Before this year, teachers taught in class rooms, people ate in restaurants, others socialized in close proximity, many worked in close quarters in offices and cubicles and only a very limited few visitors from overseas were seen wearing masks in public. What has changed? COVID-19. That's it. No other virus or disease has caused this level of panic and concern.
I have asked myself what the future holds and what will be deemed "normal" going forward and I personally think face shields and masks are ridiculous and pointless. Is the virus real? Yup. Is it dangerous? It has been proven dangerous to certain high risk groups. Am I responsible to protect the high risk? Not directly. I am responsible for my health and my dependents. If someone is high risk it is THEIR responsibility to protect themselves. Am I sympathetic to the high risk folks and their plight in protecting themselves? Yes. I won't knowingly or maliciously act to spread any illness. However, I feel folks have to decide what they are willing to do to protect themselves and their dependents. It is not my responsibility to live your life and make your decisions for you.
Do I fault someone with a new born at home, or someone in the high risk category, for taking precautions? Nope. Do I get annoyed that there are so many opinions and restrictions? Hell yes. Do I think people have to choose for themselves? Yup. Do I wear a mask? Not unless mandated by the business I am trying to patronize and they actually force me to put it on to give them my money. I don't make a scene nor try to attract attention; I am not trying to make a statement and I certainly don't berate employees that are simply doing what they are told to by their employer. I just go about living my life and letting others live theirs. I am extremely discouraged by the evident government overreach and hypocrisy.
I can't fathom nor understand why it's acceptable to protest in close proximity, but not worship in close proximity. Why is it deemed acceptable to shop in big box stores, but not dine at restaurants? The inconsistent application of what is essential vs. non essential is baffling. I would love to hear a reasonable person explain how a mask or face shield protects me when I can go to any retail store and handle goods that have been touched by countless people, including in many cases the cashier. Are gloves and sanitation stations the next step? Will we be forever afraid of germs and getting sick from now on? Is this really the new normal? How many side affects are we willing to accept (suicide, domestic violence, depression, anxiety) with the new "normal"?
If someone wants to force their beliefs on me, they damn well better have good, solid, hard facts before forcing me to act the way they want (i.e. masks, face shields, quarantine, etc). I am responsible for my own health and am accountable for the consequences of my actions. I wish everyone felt that way too.
So, by all means, wear a mask or face shield if you want to. I am totally cool if you decide to avoid me because I don't. If your physical presence is desired in my life, I will do what I can to not make you uncomfortable, but I sure as hell won't force you to interact with me. I would appreciate others not trying to force their desires on me too.
Just my $0.02.
There is real fear surrounding this virus, and it feels like this thread goes around and around in circles (62 pages and counting). It obviously conjures deep rooted feelings and opinions.
Before this year, teachers taught in class rooms, people ate in restaurants, others socialized in close proximity, many worked in close quarters in offices and cubicles and only a very limited few visitors from overseas were seen wearing masks in public. What has changed? COVID-19. That's it. No other virus or disease has caused this level of panic and concern.
I have asked myself what the future holds and what will be deemed "normal" going forward and I personally think face shields and masks are ridiculous and pointless. Is the virus real? Yup. Is it dangerous? It has been proven dangerous to certain high risk groups. Am I responsible to protect the high risk? Not directly. I am responsible for my health and my dependents. If someone is high risk it is THEIR responsibility to protect themselves. Am I sympathetic to the high risk folks and their plight in protecting themselves? Yes. I won't knowingly or maliciously act to spread any illness. However, I feel folks have to decide what they are willing to do to protect themselves and their dependents. It is not my responsibility to live your life and make your decisions for you.
Do I fault someone with a new born at home, or someone in the high risk category, for taking precautions? Nope. Do I get annoyed that there are so many opinions and restrictions? Hell yes. Do I think people have to choose for themselves? Yup. Do I wear a mask? Not unless mandated by the business I am trying to patronize and they actually force me to put it on to give them my money. I don't make a scene nor try to attract attention; I am not trying to make a statement and I certainly don't berate employees that are simply doing what they are told to by their employer. I just go about living my life and letting others live theirs. I am extremely discouraged by the evident government overreach and hypocrisy.
I can't fathom nor understand why it's acceptable to protest in close proximity, but not worship in close proximity. Why is it deemed acceptable to shop in big box stores, but not dine at restaurants? The inconsistent application of what is essential vs. non essential is baffling. I would love to hear a reasonable person explain how a mask or face shield protects me when I can go to any retail store and handle goods that have been touched by countless people, including in many cases the cashier. Are gloves and sanitation stations the next step? Will we be forever afraid of germs and getting sick from now on? Is this really the new normal? How many side affects are we willing to accept (suicide, domestic violence, depression, anxiety) with the new "normal"?
If someone wants to force their beliefs on me, they damn well better have good, solid, hard facts before forcing me to act the way they want (i.e. masks, face shields, quarantine, etc). I am responsible for my own health and am accountable for the consequences of my actions. I wish everyone felt that way too.
So, by all means, wear a mask or face shield if you want to. I am totally cool if you decide to avoid me because I don't. If your physical presence is desired in my life, I will do what I can to not make you uncomfortable, but I sure as hell won't force you to interact with me. I would appreciate others not trying to force their desires on me too.
Just my $0.02.
- Location
- East Stabbington
What I've read is that kids under 12 only seem to develop about 25% of the viral load as adults and are there for less contagious.
But, not only do I not begrudge someone who has a 1 month old from taking precautions in the class room (even without Covid I wouldn't judge that person...I wouldn't be that person personally...but kids are germ magnets man and I get not wanting to bring that home to a vulnerable newborn), if you think about the other ramifications there, they are huge and it's not fair for the teachers to try to make a political statement about mask use (or not use) that impacts so many people. If a teacher were to get it, they would have to close the class or even the school. Lots of people can't just take a couple weeks off from work to stay home with kids if school is closed for quarantine.
That's not to say I personally think that's necessary, because I personally don't find COVID all that frightening for most people and think everything is a politically charged overreaction. But that is what the government is going to require I can almost guarantee it, and it's not going to be up to the school or teach er to decide for themselves if closing the place down is necessary.
My 2 year old has been in daycare for the entire summer (like a ton of other kids I might add), and maybe my head is in the sand, but I haven't heard of any daycare closures or outbreaks being linked to daycare. If that's the case, maybe the schools being opened is as big of an issue as we think. If older kids are more susceptible, maybe the problem is going to be in the middle and high schools?
Not that I get any say in it, but I still think the stimulus checks should go out to people who are in the high risk category and their caretakers. Instead of sending everyone and their dead uncle $1200, let's send my Mom $12k to stay home until this thing passes through the healthy population. Let's build a ****ing bubble (figuratively) around the care facilities to keep the virus out of them. Let's protect the elderly, many of which spent their healthy years protecting our country in various ways, and let the healthy population protect the country by developing heard immunity. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
But, not only do I not begrudge someone who has a 1 month old from taking precautions in the class room (even without Covid I wouldn't judge that person...I wouldn't be that person personally...but kids are germ magnets man and I get not wanting to bring that home to a vulnerable newborn), if you think about the other ramifications there, they are huge and it's not fair for the teachers to try to make a political statement about mask use (or not use) that impacts so many people. If a teacher were to get it, they would have to close the class or even the school. Lots of people can't just take a couple weeks off from work to stay home with kids if school is closed for quarantine.
That's not to say I personally think that's necessary, because I personally don't find COVID all that frightening for most people and think everything is a politically charged overreaction. But that is what the government is going to require I can almost guarantee it, and it's not going to be up to the school or teach er to decide for themselves if closing the place down is necessary.
My 2 year old has been in daycare for the entire summer (like a ton of other kids I might add), and maybe my head is in the sand, but I haven't heard of any daycare closures or outbreaks being linked to daycare. If that's the case, maybe the schools being opened is as big of an issue as we think. If older kids are more susceptible, maybe the problem is going to be in the middle and high schools?
Not that I get any say in it, but I still think the stimulus checks should go out to people who are in the high risk category and their caretakers. Instead of sending everyone and their dead uncle $1200, let's send my Mom $12k to stay home until this thing passes through the healthy population. Let's build a ****ing bubble (figuratively) around the care facilities to keep the virus out of them. Let's protect the elderly, many of which spent their healthy years protecting our country in various ways, and let the healthy population protect the country by developing heard immunity. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
Look, you have your very strong beliefs- fine. But the idea that doctors are "forced to act one way" is simply wrong.
Even the studies you claim to read prove that. Doctors worldwide are experimenting with different treatments, gaining more knowledge and improving outcomes. It is honestly absurd for those without medical training to set at the computers and spout off as to what treatments should or should not be done. If you get sick, by all means discuss options with your doctor or if you insist you are smarter than them, treat yourself I suppose.
I will stick to my claim that the idea that medical professionals world-wide are being forced to use or not use specific treatments is nothing but a conspiracy theory. And the only real reason most people even claim to have knowledge of hydroxychloroquine is because a president with zero background in science or medicine stood up and told them he believes it works.
A new virus that wasn't known or being talked about in 2015.
Not all viruses, even in the same family (i.e. corona) act the same way and respond to the same treatments.
Agree 100%. Going in informed is part of your responsibility, but so is knowing the limits of your knowledge. Medical degrees and ongoing education requirements serve a purpose that is not replaced by a Google search or on-line video, no matter how many times they use the term "facts" in the title.
The reality is that we have a new disease that has lead to the deaths of 150,000 Americans in the last 4 months. Obviously that is not a trend we want to continue. We also know the economy can not stay shutdown for long, so taking simple steps (i.e. masks) to decrease the spread needs to be taken.
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
I am going to make the suggestion this thread be closed.
No new knowledge or understandings are being reached and all that is being done is driving a wedge between off-roading community members over a topic not related to what brings us together.
No new knowledge or understandings are being reached and all that is being done is driving a wedge between off-roading community members over a topic not related to what brings us together.
Jinx
when in doubt, upgrade!
- Location
- So Jordan, Utah
5 months and 60+ pages. Yea, this horse is dead, we can stop whipping it...
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
I see no reason to close the thread, the Coronavirus situation is constantly evolving... long as we can keep it civil, the thread will stay open.
The only good horse to beat is a dead horse. If you're beating a live horse then you're just a dick.
I'm just trying to live by the DON'T BE A DICK mantra and remember we're all in this together.
I get it people don't want to wear masks and I totally understand why. I get the part about freedom and not wanting to give up an inch because the .gov will take a mile. I also don't want to go into a place and make the poor business owner or employees have to tell me to put a mask on. So i just wear one. I will not get mad at someone for not wearing one provided they aren't purposefully invading my space to make a point and I will not call someone a sheep for wearing one, even if they seem to be super paranoid.
Social distancing has honestly been pretty awesome for my family. I don't really miss restaurants or large social gatherings. I get it that others do miss it and I feel bad for people that are missing out on a lot of it, especially young people. I really hope our "new normal" isn't terrible.
I get it people don't want to wear masks and I totally understand why. I get the part about freedom and not wanting to give up an inch because the .gov will take a mile. I also don't want to go into a place and make the poor business owner or employees have to tell me to put a mask on. So i just wear one. I will not get mad at someone for not wearing one provided they aren't purposefully invading my space to make a point and I will not call someone a sheep for wearing one, even if they seem to be super paranoid.
Social distancing has honestly been pretty awesome for my family. I don't really miss restaurants or large social gatherings. I get it that others do miss it and I feel bad for people that are missing out on a lot of it, especially young people. I really hope our "new normal" isn't terrible.
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
Summed up my approach pretty decently. My wife falls more in line with Herzog's thoughts.
Jesser04
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Kaysville Utah
Thanks! for a couple posts I felt like I was on twitter.
For those of you with kids what do you plan to do when school starts? I have two boys entering middle school but in school is only two days a week while 3 are at home. They have a difficult time in school as it is let alone left at home alone to just do it. It’s going to be very difficult for me to help keep them on task and doing what they should while trying to maintain all my work load. Does anyone know of any options for parents that can’t be at home with their kids during the day?
Tonkaman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Jordan
My daughters school ( Ascent Academy) is offering online or in school courses. The parents can choose which one works best for their student. My daughter really is getting lonely without her friends, so putting her back in the building is a no brainer for us.
