Coronavirus

[Cody]

I'm not sure I completely followed that, but for one, my grandmothers have been dead for years, and neither me nor my children have been able to see my mother in almost 2 months. I never said I was pro government. I simply said questioning your government and not questioning all of the conspiracy theories is ironic at best. The "don't tread on me" attitude is fine, you're welcome to have that, but the fear mongering that is happening is coming from both sides.

Your entire post reads as fear to me. You're fearful your rights are being taken away and now you're trying to spread your fear to other (aka: fear mongering). I respect your opinion man, I really do, and I'm sorry you're in a state with a tighter lockdown. I take a more Stoic and mid-line approach as I try to understand where both perspectives are coming from with empathy, but you don't have to do that and you're welcome to let your fear and anger drive you. I'm sure it works great for you, but I can't make an angry person less angry that I'm not angry like they angrily think I should be.
I'm not angry at people that are traveling and recreating either like you assume I should be. I'm not angry about my business being shut down like you think I should be. I'm just generally, not angry because that kind of anger has never served me well.

All I was simply trying to express to you is that maybe, perhaps, just possibly, the government might possibly, maybe, just a little bit be actually intending to help the greater good and not trying to piss on your personal freedom for no reason. It's just a thought, just like yours, and not another in a series of personal attacks the government and some dipshit named Cody on a forum have directed towards you. I'm also not saying they aren't throwing darts at you on the wall either, maybe they are. Maybe Billary and Trump are personally plotting to sink your boat.

I'm also a believer in math and science, and I do buy some of the modeling that is happening. Maybe that makes me a sucker. I'm also not a plague enthusiast and have vaccinated my kids and myself. I don't think the forthcoming vaccine for the Ronacoaster is going to plug us into the Matrix either. Herd immunity is a thing. I'd agree with you that I think quarantining the sick is probably a better long term approach, but that sort of modeling is way beyond my education and guess what; No amount of anger I have will allow me to change that, and going against what the government is trying to accomplish right now, in this sucker's opinion, doesn't make you a patriot or some sort of Nietzschen übermensch.

 

[glockman]

I'm not sure I completely followed that, but for one, my grandmothers have been dead for years, and neither me nor my children have been able to see my mother in almost 2 months. I never said I was pro government. I simply said questioning your government and not questioning all of the conspiracy theories is ironic at best. The "don't tread on me" attitude is fine, you're welcome to have that, but the fear mongering that is happening is coming from both sides.

Your entire post reads as fear to me. You're fearful your rights are being taken away and now you're trying to spread your fear to other (aka: fear mongering). I respect your opinion man, I really do, and I'm sorry you're in a state with a tighter lockdown. I take a more Stoic and mid-line approach as I try to understand where both perspectives are coming from with empathy, but you don't have to do that and you're welcome to let your fear and anger drive you. I'm sure it works great for you, but I can't make an angry person less angry that I'm not angry like they angrily think I should be.
I'm not angry at people that are traveling and recreating either like you assume I should be. I'm not angry about my business being shut down like you think I should be. I'm just generally, not angry because that kind of anger has never served me well.

All I was simply trying to express to you is that maybe, perhaps, just possibly, the government might possibly, maybe, just a little bit be actually intending to help the greater good and not trying to piss on your personal freedom for no reason. It's just a thought, just like yours, and not another in a series of personal attacks the government and some dipshit named Cody on a forum have directed towards you. I'm also not saying they aren't throwing darts at you on the wall either, maybe they are. Maybe Billary and Trump are personally plotting to sink your boat.

I'm also a believer in math and science, and I do buy some of the modeling that is happening. Maybe that makes me a sucker. I'm also not a plague enthusiast and have vaccinated my kids and myself. I don't think the forthcoming vaccine for the Ronacoaster is going to plug us into the Matrix either. Herd immunity is a thing. I'd agree with you that I think quarantining the sick is probably a better long term approach, but that sort of modeling is way beyond my education and guess what; No amount of anger I have will allow me to change that, and going against what the government is trying to accomplish right now, in this sucker's opinion, doesn't make you a patriot or some sort of Nietzschen übermensch.

We should sit down and have a beer one day. This is pretty much every discussion I've had all rolled into one comment with a perfect hint of smart assery.

 

[POR]

My post really isnt full of fear.. my post is factful. Is my view different than yours yes, but still based off facts that are being reported. I'm not angry at you or anyone else. I'm just contributing to this conversational debate. Facts are the common flu kills way more per year than this. When this out numbers the common flu then i guess ill have to eat crow. This corona stuff started in my area in October there was no shutdowns, technically they were 4 months late on all the Mobil hospitals and treating this. Guess what no mass pandemic of deaths or full hospitals.. I do understand them placing those just in case. The best way to get herd immunity is exposure is what doctors are saying. We've had bird flu, swine flu, and that other thing back in the day, we never shutdown then why now? They were just as much a pandemic then as now. Has it not been reported in various media outlets that most states have lowered the covid numbers as they're finding lots of misreportings. Like I said I don't see any medical benefit not letting you work and letting most others work. I don't see how companies going to 32 hr work weeks instead of 40 hr weeks helps or people like me that travel all over for construction helps either. Your still getting exposed. In the future I think this lockdown tactic will be used again for control but that is my conspiracy theory lol ! we don't have to worry about trump or killery sinking our boat in my state, our governor Inslee is doing a great job at that already. Our state really should have been fine as the so called wave had gone through already before they started shutting everything down. it's the real world facts around me that I watch. In March i would have agreed with most everything you touched on but now seeing how this is going down, I think it's fake. Like seriously they got everyone wearing masks that they literally said in February wasn't effective in combating against it. Now they say something is better than nothing lol.. these are all the things that persuade my view.. but hey at least we're exercising our constitutional rights to agree to disagree.. and im ok with that.

 

[johngottfredson]

I pretty much discount ANY idea/argument/discussion that wanders into extremist territory. Its a common tactic, perhaps human nature even: take an issue you have strong opinions on, and figure out a way to tie it directly to some major bedrock principle. Then, whenever you talk about your hot button issue, you get to point past it to the major bedrock principle and make dramatic statements in support, and dire condemnations of those who oppose.

Example: Governments (federal and local), citing public health concerns, issue temporary directives that people not congregate together in a way that could bring to pass large negative health outcomes.

Reaction A: Anyone who does not fully cooperate with the directives is complicit in killing Innocent Americans.

Reaction B: Anyone who is willing to give up their freedoms for safety is complicit in killing American Liberty

Reaction A is rejected because by that logic, we are all complicit in killing Innocent Americans anytime someone dies who could have been saved had the country shut down and paid out trillions of dollars to prevent it. You are only consistent in your beliefs if you insist on full communism with top tier healthcare for all regardless of ability to pay, as well as giving up most other basic human liberties that could result in unintended death. We always make a trade off of what we as a society allow to happen based on the cost of preventing it. Always.

Reaction B is rejected because by that logic, ALL freedoms we give up in order to live together in safety do injury to our constitutional rights. You are only consistent in your beliefs if you reject any form of government that puts constraints on you. Think that's too extreme? Ok, then lets sort out which freedoms are okay to give up. How about the Pure Food and Drug act of 1906? Should the government have the ability to take away your right to put whatever you want in a can and sell it as food with no oversight? The bastards! Haven't they read the constitution?! Give me shit food, or give me death! Point is, there's always an analysis of when a trade-off of liberty for security makes sense. Where problems of collective action come into the picture (ie, everyone looking out for their own interest will result in a net harm - like this) its a perfect example of when that discussion should be had, rationally, and not rejected outright by wrapping yourself in a flag acting like a martyr for principle.

Certainly, there are legitimate differences of opinion about how we as a society ought to respond to the pandemic, one way or the other. But there's a correct way to discuss it, and an incorrect way. Extremist, emotionally based arguments are certainly not the correct way.

 

[Houndoc]

Thank you Cody and John for trying to inject some common sense into the discussion.

It does not hurt to remember that this is not the first time governments have restricted travel and gatherings over disease outbreaks and yet our Republic has survived.

And the more we accept responsibility for our actions (something as easy as wearing a facemask to the store), the less need there is for government mandates.

 

[Herzog]

Revisions are posted on the CDC. So much for you calling us conspiracy theorists 🙄


You’re all getting played.

 

[frieed]

Also from the CDC

Why these numbers are different
Provisional death counts may not match counts from other sources, such as media reports or numbers from county health departments. Our counts often track 1–2 weeks behind other data. Death certificates take time to be completed. There are many steps to filling out and submitting a death certificate. Waiting for test results can create additional delays. States report at different rates. Currently, 63% of all U.S. deaths are reported within 10 days of the date of death, but there is significant variation between states. It takes extra time to code COVID-19 deaths. While 80% of deaths are electronically processed and coded by NCHS within minutes, most deaths from COVID-19 must be coded by a person, which takes an average of 7 days. Other reporting systems use different definitions or methods for counting deaths.

two weeks behind at the rate the deaths are increasing could easily be another 30,000

quoted from near the bottom of this page

COVID-19 Provisional Counts - Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics

Tabulated data on provisional COVID-19 deaths by age, sex, race and Hispanic origin, and comorbidities. Also includes an index of state-level and county-level mortality data available for download.

www.cdc.gov

 

[TRD270]

And the more we accept responsibility for our actions (something as easy as wearing a facemask to the store), the less need there is for government mandates.

Not the most scientific video on the planet and rather long but it gets the point across.

This is my problem with the masks, setting aside my problem with us being ordered to wear one. The vast majority of face masks being worn are probably doing more harm than good. Everywhere i've been, restaurants, home depot, grocery store, airplanes etc etc. All I see people doing is fussing with their mask. So if they have the rona all they are doing is concentrating it on their mask, then they touch it repeatedly. Now the mask is wet soaked in the rona and now you've touched it 50 times while you're in the store because you don't like wearing a mask. Now everything you touch has concentrated rona on it.

Second all these homemade "masks" are made out of whatever random material, sure they may stop some water droplets but they certainly aren't stopping them all. And again breathing all over it getting it nice and soggy then fussing with it because I don't like warm moist cloth on my face I now touch it 50 times, then I touch your fruit in the store, the door to the business i'm going in, the gas pump, the food i'm serving you, the whatever.

If you're going to get the rona you're going to get the rona, if you think your homemade mask is helping you're a silly goose.

If I feel sick I'll stay home, if I feel a cough or a sneeze coming on at the store I'll cover it, I'll wash my hands as much as practicable, and when I can find it again I'll use hand sanitizer before/after touching stuff in public. I won't mouth breathe all over a mask, mess with it non-stop and touch everything in sight.

 

[Herzog]

Uh ohs. And during an election year! What a huge coincidence

 

[Houndoc]

Two CDC Websites Give Vastly Different Coronavirus Death Tolls | The Daily Wire

www.dailywire.com

Not the most in depth look but if you're curious to why the numbers vary it's worth a look.

The more you look, follow the linked info, you see how the data is manipulated.

Seems that it is a lot easier for people to buy into a vast conspiracy than to recognize data reporting is slow and imprecise (would we expect anything else?)

But keep in mind that one of the quickest ways to get in trouble with a medical licensing board is falsified medical records. A doctor is highly unlikely to report a case or death as COVID without strong medical reasoning to do so.

So, even if you believe in government conspiracy theories, I think it is rather absurd to think doctors and researchers world-wide are part of one.

I can respect differing opinions on how best to balance health and economic concerns relating to the pandemic, but can not accept those who deny the reality of it.

 

[Herzog]

I can respect differing opinions on how best to balance health and economic concerns relating to the pandemic, but can not accept those who deny the reality of it.

 

[SAMI]

Woah, @Houndoc woulda look at '19-20 pneumonia and influenza mortality surveillance?

 

[TRD270]

I can respect differing opinions on how best to balance health and economic concerns relating to the pandemic, but can not accept those who deny the reality of it.

Is the rona bad? Yes

Is it going to kill an exorbitant amount of people? No

Was the governments initial reaction slow? Yes

Did the government eventually have the correct reaction by shutting stuff down and asking people to stay home with the data they had? I think so.

Now that we have more data is the governments continued action still justified? I think not

Will the continued action against businesses have a much more harmful effect for the vast majority of the country? I also think so.

Will treatable conditions (that weren't treated because they were afraid to seek care) and mental health deaths from the action taken exceed the potential loss of life from over reaction to the rona? I believe so

Will a generation of children who were already struggling with face to face socialization become even more isolated because they have been terrorized by the media? I think so

I'm not arguing that there has been a tragic loss of life from the rona. My point is, the blanket over reaction once we had data is going to have far more devastation to our society than not just taking action in areas that probably needed it. NYC, New Jersey etc etc

 

[Houndoc]

Woah, @Houndoc woulda look at '19-20 pneumonia and influenza mortality surveillance?

Good thing we aren't having a severe influenza season, eh?

 

[SAMI]

Good thing we aren't having a severe influenza season, eh?

I know, they've disappeared. It's a Cov-19 miracle.

 

[Houndoc]

Is it going to kill an exorbitant amount of people? No

I guess that is very subjective statement. What is exorbitant? 50,000? 100,000? 500,000?
I suspect part of that definition depends on if you are related to any of them.

But I do agree with you that a slow, careful reopening of the economy should begin. And that it is much more likely to succeed without large spike in hospitalizations and deaths we if as individuals do out part (masks etc.)

 

[anderson750]

Let's not forget that data can be manipulated by what is included and excluded. In my previous career I used to work for a major lab based out of Research Park and part of my schooling included classes in Virology, Microbiology, Statistics and more. I have always believed there has been a form of manipulation going on here. Not saying COVID is benign but think it is as much a political disease as a human disease.

 

[Noahfecks]

The more you look, follow the linked info, you see how the data is manipulated.

It's call statistics. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. Unfortunately the new "scientific method" is to come up with a theory and manipulate data to support that theory.

 

[Herzog]

The term or phrase “Conspiracy theorist” was invented by the CIA to make people questioning the narrative of the JFK assassination look bad. Fact.

Now when I get called that, which is often because I don’t buy the bs that mainstream media peddles, I consider it a badge of honor. It also helps me separate the sheep from those who like to research/think for themselves... and who I can talk lower than surface topics with. 😄

 

[Stephen]

The term or phrase “Conspiracy theorist” was invented by the CIA to make people questioning the narrative of the JFK assassination look bad. Fact.

Not a fact.

conspiracy | Etymology of conspiracy by etymonline

"a plotting of evil, unlawful design; a combination of persons for an evil purpose," from… See origin and meaning of conspiracy.

www.etymonline.com

According to that document, the earliest use of "Conspiracy Theory" in the US was in regards to the Compromise of 1850 and American history after that in an article dated 1893, but I recall seeing it used earlier in reference to the French Revolution and later with conspiracies revolving around the plots to bring Napoleon out of exile. (See: "The Birth of the Modern: World Society 1815-1830" - Paul Johnson, 1991). Additionally, Winston Churchill used the term in conjunction with the rise of fascism and appeasement of said movement in his book "The Gathering Storm", the first volume of his six part memoirs on WWII.

Perhaps you mean "The CIA popularized...". Though that is a conspiracy theory.