Obama is way ahead...

[soda blaster]

Well I guess it's time to stock up on the guns before you can't get them anymore. I am not looking forward to the next four years.

 

[Tacoma]

I too come from a state where you pay to play. Big whoop. As much as the people here whine about hand outs and freebies, they certainly aren't above crying about the PUBLIC land that they play on FOR FREE.....there are bigger things than our hobbies......

Huh??? Public land access isn't a handout or a freebie. And yes, there are bigger things than our hobbies, but... how does that figure in to closing land? Tell me what overarching reality was worth Escalante?

 

[Greg]

Red Rock Wilderness Act? I did some research and found this information...

"The bill has been introduced in Congress every session since 1989 when the late Rep. Wayne Owens, D-Utah, a fierce wilderness advocate, was its primary sponsor. Hinchey took up sponsorship in 1993, and Durbin became the Senate sponsor in 1997."

As of 2007, it's never once made it out of committee. A vast majority of bills die in committee, as this bill has done year after year after year after year after year............in both Democrat AND Republican controlled Congress....

According to the Deseret News, "The entire Utah delegation opposes the bill, and, historically, Congress never passes wilderness legislation over the objection of the home-state delegation."

Ergo, Barack Obama can't take away Utah trails....

Maybe there's something more that I'm not seeing, but everything I'm reading as far as the actual Act shows that it's never come close to actually happening.

I too come from a state where you pay to play. Big whoop. As much as the people here whine about hand outs and freebies, they certainly aren't above crying about the PUBLIC land that they play on FOR FREE.....there are bigger things than our hobbies......

Go read what I posted about Grand Staircase-Escalante NM, Clinton already did just that. Back to the Future!

My 'hobby' does define who I am, therefore it's quite important to me... I love exploring on my dual-sport, traveling for many miles without seeing a soul. If your hobby's aren't that important to you, fine... I'll fight for mine.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...According to the Deseret News, "The entire Utah delegation opposes the bill, and, historically, Congress never passes wilderness legislation over the objection of the home-state delegation."

Riiiight. Spend a minute looking at the party affiliation of this list:
http://www.suwa.org/site/PageServer?pagename=work_arwaCosponsors

Now tell me that MORE Democrats in the House and Senate won't bump the odds of the bill passing? And without a president to veto the bill, the chances of it being worked into law are heightened.

What your brilliant google search didn't point out, that this will be the first time that the Whitehouse and Congress are both Demo controlled since the ARWA was introduced to the senate in 1997.

...Ergo, Barack Obama can't take away Utah trails...

Riiiight, and Clinton couldn't create the GESNM either

...I too come from a state where you pay to play. Big whoop. As much as the people here whine about hand outs and freebies, they certainly aren't above crying about the PUBLIC land that they play on FOR FREE.....there are bigger things than our hobbies......

Free? I work my ass off for public lands, I don't call them free. I can't believe I am actually hearing this. Sickening to say the least. Apathy is a *****!

 

[GOAT]

That would be your opinion... we obviously enjoy different types of wheeling. The type I most often enjoy can't be had in Texas. And thats the type I'm not willing to lose at the whim of back east special interests. Glad everyone doesn't share your apathy.



Where exactly is this useless land???

Come on. Utah has significantly lower population density than any of the states on the east coast that offer limited offroad access. Drive west, you'll see land here that nobody will ever be able to live. Not like that back east.

Wheel out there and you'll never see one backpacker to tick off.

The problem is, we are trying to wheel where all the parks are. Starts and ends that way every time. I made one trip to EJS and could see the reason why these acts are passed.

 

[phatfoto]

As for loss of the filibuster... We have to prepare for 2010 elections. Midterms can be cruel to the party in power... Remember 94? 2006?

Perhaps we can HOPE for CHANGE again.

And while I'm at this thought, sort of alcohol induced... Start in 2010 and vote out EVERY incumbent. EVERY one of them. Change can come every 2 years till the politicians start doing the will of the people.

 

[GOAT]

You will also have to acknowlege we both donate our time and money to public lands. Rain snow or sleet.......and still will. However, I will not base my lifes decisions on my hobbies.

 

[Greg]

Come on. Utah has significantly lower population density than any of the states on the east coast that offer limited offroad access. Drive west, you'll see land here that nobody will ever be able to live. Not like that back east.

Wheel out there and you'll never see one backpacker to tick off.

The problem is, we are trying to wheel where all the parks are. Starts and ends that way every time. I made one trip to EJS and could see the reason why these acts are passed.

Negative... you familiar with the Dolores Triangle? Probably not. Not close to a National Park, it's very remote, has few roads and little use, yet is amazingly beautiful and a treat to those that to explore the area. Mechanized transportation use is about to get locked out. Right now there is a battle to turn that are into Wilderness. Why? Because SUWA and it's supporters need to 'save' the land from the bad ATV's, 4x4's and mtn bikes. No parks next door.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Come on. Utah has significantly lower population density than any of the states on the east coast that offer limited offroad access. Drive west, you'll see land here that nobody will ever be able to live. Not like that back east.

Wheel out there and you'll never see one backpacker to tick off.

The problem is, we are trying to wheel where all the parks are. Starts and ends that way every time. I made one trip to EJS and could see the reason why these acts are passed.

You sir need to wheel somewhere beside Five Mile and Moab. Its of my experience that you don't have a f-in clue what your talking about. Some of the most "off the beaten path" routes are threatened just the same as popular trail in Moab.

Do you honestly think they only want to take away land that is popular for backpackers. Seriously though, you really think that

I guess the Land Use battle needs to start by education (in some cases spoon feeding) our own users as they apparently have pre conceived ideas about Utah's (and the Wests) public lands that are beyond distorted. :-\

 

[Tacoma]

Ok.

I spent a fair amount of time in the Escalante Monument right before it all got closed. I wasn't trying to wheel where any parks were. I wasn't even wheeling, just driving on a dirt road in a truck. So what's the reason I can't anymore? Why does my trip have to take a month now instead of the week I used to spend?

Population density has got nothing to do with it. No one's out there so no one should be??? or... we have more open land to use, so we should have more open land to close?

Moab is a notable exception to most of the open wheeling areas we currently enjoy, but even Moab is a big place with plenty of room for all the user groups. There are huge swaths of land being restricted without much reason behind it.

For me, the principle of FREEDOM is what's worth the fight. Conservation and use are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[unltd1]

Huh??? Public land access isn't a handout or a freebie. And yes, there are bigger things than our hobbies, but... how does that figure in to closing land? Tell me what overarching reality was worth Escalante?

Public land access is something we all pay for through our taxes. The same as would happen with universal health care if it passed. Many people on RME seem to be opposed to universal health care because they don't want to pay their tax dollars to support other people's health and well-being, but I don't hear anyone say that they're opposed to having public lands that they wheel on paid for by taxpayers, the vast majority of which never drive on "Rattlesnake" or "Little Moab".

I seriously don't think that we're going to lose our access to public lands anytime soon. But if it ended up happening someday, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, because in the end, wheeling doesn't mean all that much in the big picture. Like I said, it's just a hobby. If some of the trails ended up getting closed, nobody would die. We'd all just find somewhere else to go, and pay 3 or 4 bucks to continue our recreation. Again, no big whoop.

I don't expect to change hearts and minds with this argument. I'm sure there are people out their whose forehead veins are poppin over the thought of having to pay a couple of bucks for a single dirt road to nowhere, but I could really care less about that.

So, whaaaaaaaaaa....

 

[Greg]

You will also have to acknowlege we both donate our time and money to public lands. Rain snow or sleet.......and still will. However, I will not base my lifes decisions on my hobbies.

I know you guys do, I'm sure Kurt does too. Kudos to you for that. We'll have to agree to disagree on the last part.

 

[Tacoma]

Wow.

You know, I moved out here to get away from all the restriction in the East. You will never, EVER convince me that that's "no big whoop". It was a big whoop to me then. It is a huge whoop to all the wheelers that have to drive all over the East Coast for a few little fenced in (and always threatened, btw) "off-road parks". And when they get closed? You'll just take up knitting or something?

NY State had a bunch of trails closed to mountain bikes even. You could hike in, if that's what you wanted to do. Any other use? CLOSED. That's a big deal in a free country.

 

[Greg]

...I don't expect to change hearts and minds with this argument. I'm sure there are people out their whose forehead veins are poppin over the thought of having to pay a couple of bucks for a single dirt road to nowhere, but I could really care less about that.

So, whaaaaaaaaaa....

There will be no "dirt roads" to drive on, that's the whole issue. At least not any worth driving on if SUWA get's it's way. And yeah, that is a big deal to some of us.

 

[GOAT]

I guess the Land Use battle needs to start by education (in some cases spoon feeding) our own users as they apparently have pre conceived ideas about Utah's (and the Wests) public lands that are beyond distorted. :-\

That sounds fantastic. When does it begin? And will there be more than three people there?

 

[Bodine]

What some consider to be hobbies others consider to be a way of life.

 

[Tacoma]

hahah Probably not

ah. alright, so looks like I'll just agree to disagree with you Texan f**ks. See you on the trail, I'll bring the knitting needles.

Time for milk and pie. MMMMM

 

[RockMonkey]

So you want socialized health care too? Go talk to a veteran that has to get their health care through the VA. Ask them how long it takes to get an appointment, and the quality of their care. That is what health care run by the US government looks like. I don't want that. I'm perfectly happy with my private health insurance where I can go to a doctor with no notice, get world-class health care, and pay a small copay.

 

[Jeremy]

So, WHYJAY, please........help me understand what "higher taxes" you're referring to.

most of us dont work for major corporations with foreign control. most of us work for small business owners.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...88D5F9-1F6B-4CF2-B2BF-1D7E9A51C077}&dist=hppr


1. Two-thirds of small business profits are earned in households making more
than $250,000 per year -- the very households Obama is shouting from the
rooftops that he will raise taxes on (Source: IRS Statistics of Income
Bulletin*). Small business profits are used to create jobs and invest in
America. This is the answer to the Obama campaign's irrelevant
claim that the number of small businesses affected will be small -- the
fact is that the bulk of profits will face a tax hike.
2. Small businesses pay income taxes at the household level. This means
that the Obama plan to raise tax rates is a direct tax hike on small
businesses -- sole proprietorships, partnerships, S-corporations, and
family farms
3. The tax rate on the lion's share of small business income could
reach 54.9 percent under a President Obama (the individual top rate will
climb from 35 percent to 39.6 percent and the Social Security/Medicare
tax rate could climb from 2.9 percent to 15.3 percent. Put those
together, and you get 54.9 percent) (Source: www.barackobama.com)
4. This 54.9 percent tax rate would be the highest since the Carter
Administration, when America suffered through double-digit inflation and
unemployment (Source: Congressional Budget Office)
5. America's 26 million small businesses employers give a paycheck to
116 million employees (Source: Census Bureau). When small business taxes
go up, millions of these employees will be at risk of being laid off.

 

[GOAT]

hahah Probably not

ah. alright, so looks like I'll just agree to disagree with you Texan f**ks. See you on the trail, I'll bring the knitting needles.

Time for milk and pie. MMMMM

you guys should know by now, it's all in good fun.........

besides, we've been waiting two months for this thread:greg: