Jeep Willys 'Crawler' project

[Greg]

I understand your packaging issues. I'm sure someone will disagree with me, but I haven't liked any of the full-hydro setups I've driven, for on-road use. Even well set up systems with double ended rams are only pretty decent...never "good" for highway.

Yeah, I think you do have some experience in this area.

I would really like to retain a steering box so it drives pretty well around town without feeling sketchy. My old TJ with the single ended ram was decent up to 40 MPH or so, any more and it was a handful.

I know we have talked about using an FZJ80 box, but even with putting it outside of the frame, my track bar length would be compromised as it would have to sit either below or inside just the frame.

Love, love, love that rig and hope to wheel with you in it one of these days. Have to agree with Carl on this one about full hydro on the road. How much do you really think you'll be on the road, and probably more important, how many times over 40 mph?

Thanks Bart! I'm hoping I can make some pretty good progress on it this Winter, it won't take much for me to make it a roller at this point.

The biggest thing I want with driving is to not need to trailer it everywhere while in Moab. I would also like to be able to drive it from home and run 21 Road or Billings, which both are a decent distance away.

If I was limited to 40 MPH that would be OK. If I had a steering box and could run up to 65 MPH, that would be best.

Have you thought about some kind of simplified cantilever? You could keep the box behind the axle and have it steer sideways (just have to custom make your pitman) to a cantliver that would do the crossover.

That is too complicated for my little brain, I would much rather deal with full hydro then try to figure out some crazy cantilever system.

 

[Greg]

Carl probably still has the files for his cantilever steering setup

I'd have to pass, honestly... full hydro sounds much easier.

I wonder if there's an electronic set-up that could work?

I know nothing about them, really, other than the new Samurai crowd has been using boxes out of Saturns.

I'm not suggesting a Saturn box as I doubt it would hold up to this rig. Yet, I do wonder if there's an option out there for you.

No idea, I know a lot of new vehicles are using electric power steering but I don't know what it would take to make it work on a rock crawler.

 

[Hickey]

No idea, I know a lot of new vehicles are using electric power steering but I don't know what it would take to make it work on a rock crawler.

A lot of money.

 

[RockChucker]

Did you follow the bobbed TJ Willys that Bentley just finished up for a customer? He had similar packaging issues and I mentioned an FJ60 steering gear. It was a box I looked at for my TJ if I couldn't have found a Scout II box. They are much smaller, but do mount outside the frame with a forward swinging pitman arm. Should make it pretty easy to have good track bar geometry. I'm in the same camp as you...except full hydro wasn't an option for me...I was bent on keeping mechanical linkage. And it was worth the work!

 

[Greg]

Did you follow the bobbed TJ Willys that Bentley just finished up for a customer? He had similar packaging issues and I mentioned an FJ60 steering gear. It was a box I looked at for my TJ if I couldn't have found a Scout II box. They are much smaller, but do mount outside the frame with a forward swinging pitman arm. Should make it pretty easy to have good track bar geometry. I'm in the same camp as you...except full hydro wasn't an option for me...I was bent on keeping mechanical linkage. And it was worth the work!

Yeah, I actually had an FJ60 steering box several years ago for another project. I never used it and sold it, of course. I need to try locating another FJ60 or 80 steering box in good condition and see if it will be the answer to my problems.

 

[Greg]

I have one if you don't find one close by.

Let me see what I can find... you're not going to use it?

 

[I Lean]

I still have the steering rack from my 100, if you want to try something ill-advised.

 

[Deleted member 12904]

A 220 watt universal electric inline motor with everything will run about $600 but you still need a gear box and I don't think it would perform in the rocks on a locked axle with big tires like you would want. Electric power steering is cool but probably a reason you don't see it more often on crawlers.

 

[Greg]

I think I'll just bite the bullet and go full hydro with a double-ended ram... it'll make my life easier. I'll just have to deal with the road manners w/o a steering box.


That decided, the rear 4 link is pretty much done. I needed to move the rear axle back another 1 1/2" which meant cutting off the frame brackets. They were just tacked, so no big deal. Once in their new location and measuring everything 3x I built the lower links and tacked on the axle brackets. I would like to see more triangulation between the links, but again I'm limited due to the width on the frame. I need to fab up some bump stops and then can set the rear axle at full bump!

If I leave the front axle where its sitting now (pretty damn far forward!) I should end up with 100" wheelbase!

At some point, I'll probably add to the lower frame mounts and make a smoother transition so they're not such rock anchors.

 

[Herzog]

I don't know the numbers very well but I know some seasoned hydro guys / places could do the numbers for you... but matching your steering valve to the pump flow and the ram makes a HUGE difference in road manners. If your lock to lock on the valve is too small it will be more squirly, but if it's too big you'll have other issues.

I've also seen people burn up pumps over and over because they were running the wrong valve. I run my oem 1989 jeep pump (rebuilt before I went full hydro in 2004) and she's still rockin. Small cooler. Proper valve won't heat up your fluid too much.

 

[Herzog]

Also - Looking good! IMO, plenty of triangulation on the links.

 

[Greg]

I don't know the numbers very well but I know some seasoned hydro guys / places could do the numbers for you... but matching your steering valve to the pump flow and the ram makes a HUGE difference in road manners. If your lock to lock on the valve is too small it will be more squirly, but if it's too big you'll have other issues.

I've also seen people burn up pumps over and over because they were running the wrong valve. I run my oem 1989 jeep pump (rebuilt before I went full hydro in 2004) and she's still rockin. Small cooler. Proper valve won't heat up your fluid too much.

All good info, I'll see what I can learn about the valve and my pump, find out of they will be a good match. I will plan to add a cooler and possibly filter.

Also - Looking good! IMO, plenty of triangulation on the links.

Thanks, Shane!

 

[Bart]

The full hydro should be okay, and only time will tell. They do 100+ mph across the desert with them. The 4 link looks great.

 

[Greg]

The full hydro should be okay, and only time will tell. They do 100+ mph across the desert with them. The 4 link looks great.

Yeah, I'll just go for full hydro and deal with how it drives.... we will see. Shane's info should help, long as I can get all the parts working together.

Thanks Bart!

 

[muleskinner]

When I was putting my buggy together I did a ton of research on how the full hydro race guys can go so fast with full hydro. Shane is correct, using the correct pump and valve is a biggie and most of them run 8-9 degrees of caster also.

 

[Greg]

When I was putting my buggy together I did a ton of research on how the full hydro race guys can go so fast with full hydro. Shane is correct, using the correct pump and valve is a biggie and most of them run 8-9 degrees of caster also.

That's pretty interesting about the caster, thanks Scott! I'll have to figure out what the specs are for my pump and go from there.

 

[Agility Customs]

This chart on Trail-Gears website is pretty useful when deciding on what size of orbital valve to run. I am sure these numbers are based on using a 2.5" bore cylinder but not 100% sure. Scroll to the bottom of the page and you can find the chart.

http://www.trail-gear.com/product/4830/orbitals-steering-control-valve

 

[Greg]

This chart on Trail-Gears website is pretty useful when deciding on what size of orbital valve to run. I am sure these numbers are based on using a 2.5" bore cylinder but not 100% sure. Scroll to the bottom of the page and you can find the chart.

http://www.trail-gear.com/product/4830/orbitals-steering-control-valve

Awesome, thanks for the link!

 

[Herzog]

That's what it was. If your pump is a continuous flow (most vehicle pumps are) make sure you get an open center valve. That allows the fluid to keep flowing in circulation and keeps the temps down. If you use a closed center on a continous pump it will overheat and kill your pump really fast. I posted info about my valve a few times in various threads. Mine works excellent with a 8x2.5 single ended cylinder but I'd bet for a double ended cylinder you'd want something different...?

 

[Greg]

Any thoughts on the front link setup, 4 vs. 3 links? I'll be running a track bar, planned to run a 4 link and I have the room to make it work, but I'm minus the joints to make the 4th upper link at the moment. I can order them easy enough.

Personally, I like the redundancy of the 4 link.... but I'm wondering if I'll have a bit of suspension bind with the way my links will be setup, running the track bar. My lowers are angled out from the frame to the axle, the uppers will be close to parallel to the frame.

I have heard that the front-end may pull to one side under braking, due the lack of a 2nd upper link... but it may not be as much of an issue with full hydro.